Fraud Detection in Digital Marketing
After a summer break we are back with Rich Kahn, CEO of Anura who is one of the leading experts on the subject of click fraud, how to spot it and how to fix it.
He shares staggering dollar amounts of how much this is an issue for advertisers.
I was shocked and you will be too.
Listen in, it's worth it regardless of which side of the digital marketing ecosystem you sit on.
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Podchaser 
Youtube Music Starting off season 4 of Digital Marketing Stories after a break.
On today's episode, Rich Kahn, CEO of Anura talks about Digital Ad Fraud and Why Marketers Need Third-Party Detection
From how he entered ad fraud prevention after starting an ad network in 2003 and finding no commercial fraud solution in 2004, leading him to build software that ultimately became Anura, launched as a standalone product in 2017.
They discuss why fraud and compliance are often overlooked, how networks and platforms can enable low-quality or fraudulent traffic, and a case where a major university found a DSP buy to be over 90% fraud due to KPIs being gamed.
Rich explains evolving tactics like residential proxies and why IP/user-agent-only checks cause false positives, while Anura uses extensive device fingerprinting and guarantee high accuracy.
He argues that the rise of AI helps both fraudsters and advertisers and agencies, cites large digital ad spend with significant fraud, and offers a free traffic quality audit via Anura.io or LinkedIn.
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Important Notes
This is Digital Marketing Stories on Bad Decisions with Jim Banks, the weekly podcast for digital marketers who want to learn from the best.
New episodes are released every Wednesday at 2PM GMT where you'll get digital marketing stories and anecdotes along with bad decisions and success stories from digital marketing guests who've been there and done that in many of the disciplines that make up the discipline of digital marketing.
The podcast is powered by Captivate and all the ums, and ers have been removed using Descript to make your listening more enjoyable.
Some of the snappy titles, introductions, transcripts were created using AI Magic via Castmagic
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00:00 - Welcome and Backstory
00:58 - Rich’s Journey to Ad Fraud
01:37 - Building Anura From Scratch
04:08 - Compliance Isn’t Sexy
07:27 - Networks and Incentives
10:33 - Real Campaign Fraud Case
13:32 - Consent and Lead Recycling
16:56 - How Fraudsters Hide
22:08 - False Positives Hurt Sales
25:45 - AI and the Future
28:56 - Free Traffic Quality Audit
32:31 - How to Block Bad Traffic
33:27 - Where to Learn More
34:23 - Final Thanks and Wrap
Jim Banks:
So Rich, it's great
Jim Banks:
to have you on as a guest on
Jim Banks:
Digital Marketing Stories.
Rich Kahn:
Appreciate having me.
Jim Banks:
a, just a
Jim Banks:
little bit of a backstory.
Jim Banks:
I mean, I, I actually met Rich
Jim Banks:
in London a couple of years ago.
Jim Banks:
we, we were, I was speaking at a
Jim Banks:
conference he was over attending.
Jim Banks:
and we just ended up quite coincidentally
Jim Banks:
at a, a marvellous dinner in a sushi
Jim Banks:
restaurant in London and and that
Jim Banks:
was like a couple of years ago.
Jim Banks:
And it's, it's been quite serendipitous
Jim Banks:
that, that we are now in a position where
Jim Banks:
I can have you on as a guest on the show.
Jim Banks:
So, so great to have you.
Rich Kahn:
Awesome.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
Good memory.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah, it's, it's been, like I said,
Rich Kahn:
I remember in London, I forgot
Rich Kahn:
about the, the, the restaurant.
Jim Banks:
Yeah, it's, so, I think,
Jim Banks:
I think, came along as Taryn's
Jim Banks:
plus one, Taryn was a, a guest on
Jim Banks:
a episode that I had, with, think
Jim Banks:
I had, Sara from Link Unite, and
Rich Kahn:
Yep.
Jim Banks:
Kali who was also
Jim Banks:
one of the, uh, attendees.
Jim Banks:
Again, I, I really enjoyed that
Jim Banks:
show, put on by Lee-ann Johnson,
Jim Banks:
who was another guest on the show.
Jim Banks:
So for me, it's, again, it's, it's
Jim Banks:
become quite serendipitous how many,
Jim Banks:
guests that I've met in real life, in,
Jim Banks:
in person, ended up having on as a guest.
Jim Banks:
And I'm, again, I'm delighted to have you
Jim Banks:
on to talk about what probably should be
Jim Banks:
first and foremost in most people's minds,
Jim Banks:
but it tends to be something that has
Jim Banks:
become an, an overlooked kind of thing,
Jim Banks:
which is the, the subject of, of fraud.
Jim Banks:
and, perhaps you can just tell us
Jim Banks:
a little bit about how you ended
Jim Banks:
up in, in the sort of position
Jim Banks:
that you are in now, running Anura
Rich Kahn:
Well, it started off, as you
Rich Kahn:
know, I've been in the space since 93, so
Rich Kahn:
I've been doing a lot of different things.
Rich Kahn:
I've, I've had 300 phone lines coming
Rich Kahn:
into my house, you know, running
Rich Kahn:
an ISP directly outta my house.
Rich Kahn:
I've built websites.
Rich Kahn:
I've, you know, my first marketing
Rich Kahn:
business was an email marketing newsletter
Rich Kahn:
before the, the web browser came out.
Rich Kahn:
So, I mean, I've been doing
Rich Kahn:
a lot of different things.
Rich Kahn:
And in 2003 my wife and I started,
Rich Kahn:
an ad network and the whole idea
Rich Kahn:
was, it was Google lot smaller,
Rich Kahn:
lot more cost effective so the
Rich Kahn:
smaller companies can get on there
Rich Kahn:
and, and get good quality traffic.
Rich Kahn:
And it started off great and then
Rich Kahn:
fraud hit the, hit the network.
Rich Kahn:
And all of a sudden now I had an issue
Rich Kahn:
and I did some research and realised,
Rich Kahn:
okay, I know what this, this is fraud.
Rich Kahn:
I've dealt with this before.
Rich Kahn:
And I remember telling my partner, I
Rich Kahn:
don't want to be the guy solving fraud.
Rich Kahn:
I just want to build my network, deal
Rich Kahn:
with my publishers, grow the brands.
Rich Kahn:
I just focus 'cause it was enough.
Rich Kahn:
You know, it's, it's, that's a big
Rich Kahn:
enough business of an of its own.
Rich Kahn:
And you know, as a small company, you
Rich Kahn:
don't have the resource to do everything.
Rich Kahn:
So I lemme just go find a
Rich Kahn:
solution out in the marketplace,
Rich Kahn:
bolt it on and call it a day.
Rich Kahn:
Well, lo and behold, in
Rich Kahn:
2004, nothing existed.
Rich Kahn:
in fact, the first commercially
Rich Kahn:
available fraud solution did not come
Rich Kahn:
out until, I think it was 2008, 2009.
Rich Kahn:
So it was a while.
Rich Kahn:
So again, as a developer, we
Rich Kahn:
can either lose our business
Rich Kahn:
or I can solve the problem.
Rich Kahn:
So I wrote the software and I think it
Rich Kahn:
was less than a hundred lines of code.
Rich Kahn:
And it worked great until it didn't.
Rich Kahn:
fraud constantly evolves.
Rich Kahn:
That's one thing about fraud
Rich Kahn:
is always trying to find a
Rich Kahn:
way to get around your system.
Rich Kahn:
And so we started developing the
Rich Kahn:
software and growing it and you know,
Rich Kahn:
10 years later you look up and all
Rich Kahn:
of a sudden you got clients asking,
Rich Kahn:
if not begging to use your solution
Rich Kahn:
on other channels of marketing in it.
Rich Kahn:
Originally when we first built it,
Rich Kahn:
like, no, if you want our clean
Rich Kahn:
traffic, you have to buy from us.
Rich Kahn:
It was kind of a little bit of a pompous
Rich Kahn:
attitude to have, but it's, it's, that's
Rich Kahn:
what we wanted to, we didn't wanna
Rich Kahn:
build another platform, but once we
Rich Kahn:
had some people asking, all of a sudden
Rich Kahn:
we said, you know what, let's kind of
Rich Kahn:
shoehorn one client because he had, he
Rich Kahn:
was complaining about fraud and it was
Rich Kahn:
all organic traffic and it cur it had my
Rich Kahn:
curiosity, why would organic traffic have
Rich Kahn:
fraud and at a level that he's noticing.
Rich Kahn:
So we jerry rigged our software
Rich Kahn:
and, and stuck it on his website and
Rich Kahn:
sure enough he had over 30% fraud on
Rich Kahn:
organic traffic and really started to
Rich Kahn:
understand some of that marketing space.
Rich Kahn:
And then got to the point where it's
Rich Kahn:
like, you know what time to launch
Rich Kahn:
this as a standalone solution.
Rich Kahn:
This makes sense.
Rich Kahn:
And, did some research, did some
Rich Kahn:
testing against other solutions.
Rich Kahn:
And we definitely did a better job in the
Rich Kahn:
performance marketing sector than anybody
Rich Kahn:
else because most fraud solutions, if you
Rich Kahn:
look at 'em, are built around branding
Rich Kahn:
campaigns, you know, display video.
Rich Kahn:
Like how do you really judge that?
Rich Kahn:
You really can't.
Rich Kahn:
Performance marketing.
Rich Kahn:
If somebody fills out a form
Rich Kahn:
and I say, no, it's fake.
Rich Kahn:
And you pick up the phone and call
Rich Kahn:
and the guy says, no, I fill out your
Rich Kahn:
form, then you know you're wrong.
Rich Kahn:
You know, performance marketing
Rich Kahn:
is very specific, very definitive.
Rich Kahn:
So we started looking at that, doing some
Rich Kahn:
testing, realise we had a better solution.
Rich Kahn:
And then in 2017 launched Anura
Rich Kahn:
as a standalone fraud solution.
Rich Kahn:
It's, it's funny, you talking about sort
Rich Kahn:
of back in the day, I, I always remember
Rich Kahn:
I used to have an an ad network and,
Rich Kahn:
used to say my job, uh, running my, my
Rich Kahn:
network was to protect the advertisers
Rich Kahn:
from the publishers and to protect the
Rich Kahn:
publishers from the advertisers, right?
Rich Kahn:
And, and, and I, I mean it
Rich Kahn:
was, I'm talking sort of 2007,
Rich Kahn:
eight, something like that.
Rich Kahn:
I think to, to this day, I mean, that's
Rich Kahn:
really what, what the mantra of a,
Rich Kahn:
of a network should be, is like your
Rich Kahn:
job is to police the ecosystem that
Rich Kahn:
exists, But also to kind in, support.
Rich Kahn:
Right.
Rich Kahn:
mean, I think, funny, like I, I, I, met
Rich Kahn:
a load load of people at various few
Rich Kahn:
bit summits over the years, and I, I
Rich Kahn:
spoke at a couple of them in the past.
Rich Kahn:
I think the last time I spoke at
Rich Kahn:
affiliate Summit was probably like
Rich Kahn:
2009 or 10, something like that.
Rich Kahn:
And I'd organised a panel and it was all
Rich Kahn:
about compliance and regulation, right?
Rich Kahn:
And to me, I thought, this is gonna
Rich Kahn:
be like standing room only the
Rich Kahn:
room's gonna be full of people.
Rich Kahn:
And there was like seven
Rich Kahn:
people in the room.
Rich Kahn:
I thought, this is ridiculous.
Rich Kahn:
I mean, ultimately compliance
Rich Kahn:
is the thing that can keep your
Rich Kahn:
business like alive or dead, right?
Rich Kahn:
I mean, you somebody comes knocking
Rich Kahn:
on your door and says, we're
Rich Kahn:
shutting your business down, right?
Rich Kahn:
You are completely screwed.
Rich Kahn:
And, I think in some respects, like I
Rich Kahn:
know that Qlik fraud sometimes kind gets
Rich Kahn:
thrown in with compliance because of the,
Rich Kahn:
the kind of, the nature of what it is.
Rich Kahn:
It's, it's not particularly sexy,
Rich Kahn:
although I'm sure you, you'll kind
Rich Kahn:
dispute that, that a nos code is
Rich Kahn:
probably great, very sexy, but, but
Rich Kahn:
it's, but it, but ultimately I think
Rich Kahn:
what it does is it gives people
Rich Kahn:
confidence and, and assurances that
Rich Kahn:
this is, the, the, the payments that
Rich Kahn:
are being made are legitimate payments
Rich Kahn:
that should be being made, right?
Rich Kahn:
Based upon the fact that all of the other
Rich Kahn:
sort of fraudulent activities has been
Rich Kahn:
removed to the extent that it's able to.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
And it's funny because I just
Rich Kahn:
did, a fraud summit at Affiliate
Rich Kahn:
Summit a couple weeks ago.
Rich Kahn:
it ended up being a two and a half
Rich Kahn:
hour presentation, and it was kind of
Rich Kahn:
like, we broke it down into like panels
Rich Kahn:
and discussion points, and we brought
Rich Kahn:
up some of our customers and they had
Rich Kahn:
their own deck on what they were doing.
Rich Kahn:
And, and it was a lot of fun and
Rich Kahn:
we had some, some interest in it.
Rich Kahn:
It started off with, you know, the room
Rich Kahn:
held, I think say a hundred people.
Rich Kahn:
and it was kinda like, you know, a
Rich Kahn:
friend of mine was speaking on law like
Rich Kahn:
TCPA law, you know, and unfortunately
Rich Kahn:
it's like, you know, it's, it's an
Rich Kahn:
important subject, but when there's so
Rich Kahn:
many of the things going on, it's like,
Rich Kahn:
it's, ah, some people show up to it.
Rich Kahn:
So like with ad fraud, I mean, it was
Rich Kahn:
pretty, I, I, I would say for what it was.
Rich Kahn:
And, and we also, we were at the end of
Rich Kahn:
the show second day, and right as our
Rich Kahn:
presentation started, the word got out
Rich Kahn:
that all of the, airlines were cancelling.
Rich Kahn:
'cause there was storms coming in, and
Rich Kahn:
they basically shut down all the airlines.
Rich Kahn:
So everyone's now scrambling
Rich Kahn:
to try to try to get out.
Rich Kahn:
And most people, it was a Tuesday, most
Rich Kahn:
people couldn't get out until Thursday.
Rich Kahn:
And I guess the, the
Rich Kahn:
hotels got wind of this.
Rich Kahn:
So instead of charging three,
Rich Kahn:
$400 a night, they were
Rich Kahn:
charging 12 to $1,500 a night.
Rich Kahn:
So it was pandemonium.
Rich Kahn:
And yet we still had 50 people.
Rich Kahn:
And, you know, start off at
Rich Kahn:
the, at the beginning of the
Rich Kahn:
presentation, watch the keynote and
Rich Kahn:
everything else that I was doing.
Rich Kahn:
And then of course, as the day, you
Rich Kahn:
know, as the two and a half hours
Rich Kahn:
went on, less and less people.
Rich Kahn:
But I think at the last
Rich Kahn:
presentation was like at the panel
Rich Kahn:
of like four or five experts.
Rich Kahn:
I think we still had like 20, 25
Rich Kahn:
people, you know, which doesn't sound
Rich Kahn:
like a lot when you have a room for
Rich Kahn:
a hundred, but when you take into
Rich Kahn:
account everything else going on and
Rich Kahn:
what was going on, it wasn't bad.
Rich Kahn:
we had over 200 people register for
Rich Kahn:
the show for the event, so we were
Rich Kahn:
able to send them some marketing
Rich Kahn:
materials and everything else.
Rich Kahn:
But, you know, it's, it's like anything
Rich Kahn:
else, it's, it's, it not the sexiest
Rich Kahn:
subject when you're talking about fraud,
Rich Kahn:
because the average person doesn't wanna
Rich Kahn:
say, oh, we have a fraud problem, because
Rich Kahn:
now they're actively selling that traffic
Rich Kahn:
to, to brands, you know, so usually
Rich Kahn:
when we talk to talk to a lot of people,
Rich Kahn:
we try to go after the brands because
Rich Kahn:
they're the ones who care about it, right?
Rich Kahn:
They're the ones paying for it.
Rich Kahn:
So they try to avoid fraud at all costs.
Rich Kahn:
networks, you talk to networks,
Rich Kahn:
it depends on the network.
Rich Kahn:
Some networks are like, yeah, I know
Rich Kahn:
if I clear up the fraud, you know, my
Rich Kahn:
clients spend more money with me, I grow.
Rich Kahn:
And then you have others that,
Rich Kahn:
well, I'm not gonna do anything
Rich Kahn:
unless my client complains about it.
Rich Kahn:
You know, so those are the, those
Rich Kahn:
are the networks I don't want to use
Rich Kahn:
because, you know, they're kind of
Rich Kahn:
putting it on their, their brands to
Rich Kahn:
decide what's real and what's fake.
Rich Kahn:
And by the time the brand realise
Rich Kahn:
that the, the marketing agency's
Rich Kahn:
doing a bad job, they're, they're
Rich Kahn:
already moving to another agency.
Jim Banks:
Yeah, I used to work with a,
Jim Banks:
a, a sort of PPC network in the uk way
Jim Banks:
back in sort of 2002, something like that.
Jim Banks:
And, remember sort of I identifying
Jim Banks:
through the tracking solution that I was
Jim Banks:
using back then that, uh, were having a
Jim Banks:
lot of issues with some certain publishers
Jim Banks:
on the network that they had, right?
Jim Banks:
So they had their own sort of owned and
Jim Banks:
operated sites, but they also had other
Jim Banks:
publishers sort of sending traffic.
Jim Banks:
And, and I noticed that some of
Jim Banks:
these were, were fraudulent, right?
Jim Banks:
So I kind of like approached the guy
Jim Banks:
and said, look, you we've noticed all
Jim Banks:
these fraudulent clicks that we've been
Jim Banks:
getting, whatcha are gonna do about it?
Jim Banks:
And he goes, well, if you can
Jim Banks:
commit to spend more money, I'll,
Jim Banks:
I'll, I'll look into it, right?
Jim Banks:
And I'm like, why should I have to
Jim Banks:
commit to spend more money for you
Jim Banks:
to kind rectify something that I've
Jim Banks:
clearly brought to your attention?
Rich Kahn:
That I'm actively
Rich Kahn:
paying for right now.
Jim Banks:
yeah, exactly.
Jim Banks:
And you even though that the numbers still
Jim Banks:
looked okay and, and it was still backing
Jim Banks:
out to me, it was just, it wasn't like
Jim Banks:
things have got to be done in a certain
Jim Banks:
way that you feel comfortable that, you
Jim Banks:
everything has been done to kind ensure
Jim Banks:
that the, the integrity of everything
Jim Banks:
that's gone on is, is legitimate.
Jim Banks:
So in the same way that, you you, if
Jim Banks:
you are a network that you've done your
Jim Banks:
due diligence in vetting the sources of
Jim Banks:
traffic that your publishers have, right?
Jim Banks:
Because ultimately one bad publisher
Jim Banks:
could bring down your entire network
Jim Banks:
working with advertiser, right?
Jim Banks:
And, and I think, I don't think
Jim Banks:
people quite often realise the
Jim Banks:
implications of that, right?
Jim Banks:
And, I mean I used, I used to uh, still,
Jim Banks:
I still run a lot of, search ads with,
Jim Banks:
with Google and it's quite interesting
Jim Banks:
like the have the Google Display Network
Jim Banks:
and a lot of people say, I'm getting
Jim Banks:
loads of, of conversions from the GDN,
Jim Banks:
but when we actually look at them,
Jim Banks:
they're not particularly the good quality.
Jim Banks:
what, a lot of the publishers have
Jim Banks:
worked out is if they fill in forms, then
Jim Banks:
Google will send more traffic to them.
Jim Banks:
'cause they're getting the conversion
Jim Banks:
signals to say, this publisher has
Jim Banks:
sent traffic, it's converted, so I'm
Jim Banks:
gonna send more of them that way.
Jim Banks:
And know, and, and again, I, you
Jim Banks:
look at it and go, well that's
Jim Banks:
obviously a Google problem, right?
Jim Banks:
But equally it's also an
Jim Banks:
advertiser problem 'cause they're
Jim Banks:
ultimately, going to be processing.
Jim Banks:
'cause every sort of lead that goes
Jim Banks:
through has a cost associated with,
Jim Banks:
in terms of processing the lead,
Jim Banks:
even if you know it's not gonna back
Jim Banks:
out, they've still gotta process.
Jim Banks:
It might take fif might cost 15, 25
Jim Banks:
bucks to process the lead, right?
Jim Banks:
But ultimately you are not gonna
Jim Banks:
get paid, the network's not gonna
Jim Banks:
get paid, the advertisers paid
Jim Banks:
the money for for processing it.
Jim Banks:
only person that's gonna get paid
Jim Banks:
is Google and the publisher, right?
Jim Banks:
Who sent the traffic.
Jim Banks:
So.
Rich Kahn:
Well, I'll give you an example.
Rich Kahn:
We have, a client's, a ma,
Rich Kahn:
it's a major university.
Rich Kahn:
They came to us because the
Rich Kahn:
CMO has been in the mar digital
Rich Kahn:
marketing space for 15 years.
Rich Kahn:
And she just had a gut feeling that
Rich Kahn:
there was something wasn't right.
Rich Kahn:
Didn't tell us that they were
Rich Kahn:
using, an agency to manage
Rich Kahn:
their, their campaign buys.
Rich Kahn:
We put our code on a landing page,
Rich Kahn:
we started tracking everything.
Rich Kahn:
And one of the first things that stood out
Rich Kahn:
as a major publicly traded DSP was one of
Rich Kahn:
their campaign buys was over 90% fraud.
Rich Kahn:
And we're like, and I saw that
Rich Kahn:
and I'm like, wait a second.
Rich Kahn:
Usually when we, when we scan A
Rich Kahn:
DSP, that's like 50% fraud, which
Rich Kahn:
is still alarmingly high, but
Rich Kahn:
in this situation was 90% high.
Rich Kahn:
So we talked to the agency and they're
Rich Kahn:
like, nah, I don't trust your data.
Rich Kahn:
It's not right, blah, blah, blah.
Rich Kahn:
And I said, all right, let's just
Rich Kahn:
do a simple dumb test right now.
Rich Kahn:
Let's just shut off this traffic
Rich Kahn:
because this represents a
Rich Kahn:
certain percentage of traffic.
Rich Kahn:
And if I'm right, the ROAS is
Rich Kahn:
gonna jump because you're gonna
Rich Kahn:
obviously see real traffic coming in.
Rich Kahn:
If I'm wrong, it'll main maintain
Rich Kahn:
the same or, or it'll, it will
Rich Kahn:
go in a wrong opposite direction.
Rich Kahn:
And sure enough, it was night and
Rich Kahn:
day like they felt the difference.
Rich Kahn:
And like, look, I believe DSP should
Rich Kahn:
be part of your buy, but you gotta
Rich Kahn:
be able to do it the right way.
Rich Kahn:
And what we came to figure out
Rich Kahn:
was the KPIs that the agency was
Rich Kahn:
using to manage the campaign were
Rich Kahn:
being faked by the fraudsters.
Rich Kahn:
So they were actually
Rich Kahn:
optimising towards more fraud.
Rich Kahn:
And that's why they went from 50% to 90%
Rich Kahn:
fraud, where it became a point where you
Rich Kahn:
shouldn't be buying on this campaign.
Rich Kahn:
Once we did that, the agency is
Rich Kahn:
now asking us for our advice on
Rich Kahn:
what to do and how to handle it.
Rich Kahn:
And eventually, obviously the
Rich Kahn:
next conversation that they want
Rich Kahn:
to have is about deploying it
Rich Kahn:
across other clients that they're
Rich Kahn:
trying to improve campaigns for.
Rich Kahn:
So it's like you get into those
Rich Kahn:
situations and fraud is getting tricky.
Rich Kahn:
Like you said, people come to me and say,
Rich Kahn:
well, you know, this was a good lead.
Rich Kahn:
They filled out a form.
Rich Kahn:
I'm like, did you call the lead?
Rich Kahn:
Did you listen to the call recordings?
Rich Kahn:
Because if they put Rich Kahn's
Rich Kahn:
information into a form and
Rich Kahn:
somebody calls my phone, first
Rich Kahn:
off, I don't recognise the number.
Rich Kahn:
I'm not gonna answer the call.
Rich Kahn:
So it's gonna take more times.
Rich Kahn:
It's gonna, like you said,
Rich Kahn:
processing that call.
Rich Kahn:
It's gonna take more call
Rich Kahn:
centre resources to reach me.
Rich Kahn:
Let's say I get annoyed
Rich Kahn:
'cause I see the number keeps
Rich Kahn:
coming in over and over again.
Rich Kahn:
I finally answer the call.
Rich Kahn:
I'm like, Hey, you filled out a form
Rich Kahn:
to save money on your car insurance or
Rich Kahn:
something like that, or get a new roof.
Rich Kahn:
It's like, now I already have a new roof.
Rich Kahn:
The roof's only two months old.
Rich Kahn:
Why would I fill out a
Rich Kahn:
form to get a new roof?
Rich Kahn:
Like.
Jim Banks:
like I filled in a form 'cause
Jim Banks:
I wanted to win an iPhone, or I wanted to
Jim Banks:
kind of like win a gift card or something.
Jim Banks:
Right.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
Which is
Jim Banks:
often.
Rich Kahn:
right.
Rich Kahn:
Those were real people, but
Rich Kahn:
it was a bogus transaction.
Rich Kahn:
It was incentivized transactions.
Rich Kahn:
Now they're just taking real people's
Rich Kahn:
information, which is available on the
Rich Kahn:
internet for free, filling out forms.
Rich Kahn:
People look like, oh look, that
Rich Kahn:
Rich Kahn matches the email
Rich Kahn:
address, matches the phone number.
Rich Kahn:
Must be a real lead.
Rich Kahn:
And then they start processing that
Rich Kahn:
lead, like you mentioned, only to come
Rich Kahn:
to find out that it's not a real lead.
Rich Kahn:
And in the United States, when you
Rich Kahn:
call somebody who didn't give you
Rich Kahn:
expressed written consent to call 'em,
Rich Kahn:
you break in TCPA compliance, which
Rich Kahn:
by the way, is the fastest growing
Rich Kahn:
class action lawsuits in this country.
Rich Kahn:
And they're happening on a regular
Rich Kahn:
basis because these frauds are filling
Rich Kahn:
out forms with people who didn't
Rich Kahn:
fill, who didn't give the permission,
Rich Kahn:
permission to to, to call them.
Rich Kahn:
And it's creating all kinds of issues.
Rich Kahn:
' Jim Banks: cause I think, again, I
Rich Kahn:
mean, having worked in this industry
Rich Kahn:
for a long time, you have a lot
Rich Kahn:
of people that are data brokers.
Rich Kahn:
They, they kind have email
Rich Kahn:
lists that people have generated
Rich Kahn:
and they're selling them on.
Rich Kahn:
And, again, it's sort of like the,
Rich Kahn:
the, the permission side of things is
Rich Kahn:
really grey and murky and dark and,
Rich Kahn:
quite often you, you'll see people and
Rich Kahn:
what they're selling is they're selling
Rich Kahn:
somebody else's suppression list.
Rich Kahn:
Right.
Rich Kahn:
it may be suppressed from that offer, but
Rich Kahn:
it's not suppressed from everything else.
Rich Kahn:
you emails are legit because
Rich Kahn:
they're on a suppression list.
Rich Kahn:
But you don't have
Rich Kahn:
permission to mail offers.
Rich Kahn:
Which just becomes like
Rich Kahn:
a bit of a mess really.
Rich Kahn:
Or they get a little
Rich Kahn:
trickier and they buy age leads,
Jim Banks:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
that actually filled
Rich Kahn:
out a form at one point or another.
Rich Kahn:
Conversion rates are much lower.
Rich Kahn:
But again, if you're buying age leads
Rich Kahn:
and that's the business you're in, then
Rich Kahn:
you expect a lower conversion rate, but
Rich Kahn:
you also expect a lower price per lead.
Rich Kahn:
But what they're doing is they're
Rich Kahn:
taking these age leads, they're
Rich Kahn:
buying them for pennies in a dollar,
Rich Kahn:
and then they're recirculating
Rich Kahn:
them back into your new form.
Rich Kahn:
So you get somebody on the phone, yeah,
Rich Kahn:
they fill out a form some time ago,
Rich Kahn:
but they didn't fill out your form.
Rich Kahn:
And now you're paying a lot of
Rich Kahn:
money for, leads that aren't gonna
Rich Kahn:
convert at a, at a natural level.
Jim Banks:
Mean, it's quite often
Jim Banks:
with the, I mean, I, I used to do
Jim Banks:
it a reasonable amount of, of, lead
Jim Banks:
generation in the subprime space.
Jim Banks:
And it was always interesting when we
Jim Banks:
were trying to get an offer onboarded,
Jim Banks:
we, we'd run a few tests initially.
Jim Banks:
So quite often you'd use like some email
Jim Banks:
addresses that you'd set up as a kind
Jim Banks:
of test to, to make sure that the emails
Jim Banks:
kind landed where they needed to land.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Jim Banks:
make sure that land
Jim Banks:
the inbox on Yahoo and Gmail
Jim Banks:
and a AOL and, and Microsoft.
Jim Banks:
quite often, you you'd kind
Jim Banks:
through the process, you wanna make
Jim Banks:
sure it, it kind of track tracks
Jim Banks:
through right the way through, so
Jim Banks:
you'd fill in the form and so on.
Jim Banks:
And quite often, you even if you just
Jim Banks:
filled in the email address, like,
Jim Banks:
just the name and email address, all
Jim Banks:
of a sudden, like inbox would be just
Jim Banks:
bombarded with people who were feeding.
Jim Banks:
So they'd be trying to monetize your
Jim Banks:
email address before they've even had
Jim Banks:
to pay for the lead in the first place.
Jim Banks:
So, you might be paying a dollar
Jim Banks:
for a lead on an email submit.
Jim Banks:
they've, they've tried to ping you on
Jim Banks:
seven or six or seven offers right.
Jim Banks:
Before they've even had to pay
Jim Banks:
the dollar for the, the, the
Jim Banks:
email address that they've had.
Jim Banks:
Right.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah, they're trying
Rich Kahn:
to make the money ahead of time.
Rich Kahn:
Yep.
Jim Banks:
yeah.
Jim Banks:
you but again, it's, it that's
Jim Banks:
part of the ecosystem, right.
Jim Banks:
I think sometimes the, the ecosystem
Jim Banks:
evolution, ends up having something
Jim Banks:
like an manure in it, in its place
Jim Banks:
because it's mature enough to have it.
Jim Banks:
Right.
Jim Banks:
think probably back in the early days it
Jim Banks:
was very wild west and there was rules
Jim Banks:
and quite often, were helping Google to
Jim Banks:
find the kinks in their systems, right?
Jim Banks:
So we were running a lot of traffic
Jim Banks:
to AdSense made for AdSense websites.
Jim Banks:
And, and up as far as the, the kind
Jim Banks:
of, the, the way in which they monetize
Jim Banks:
the, the, the, payouts to publishers.
Jim Banks:
But then they, they realised the errors of
Jim Banks:
their ways and they changed it and Right.
Jim Banks:
That made the rules kind different.
Jim Banks:
And, and that's, I think that's part of
Jim Banks:
the evolution of the industry, right.
Jim Banks:
just, it would evolve and it will change,
Jim Banks:
and, it requires people who are prepared
Jim Banks:
to, to push it, push the boundaries,
Jim Banks:
and sometimes you'll take, you'll
Jim Banks:
stick a foot over the wrong side of the
Jim Banks:
boundary, then you'll bring it back.
Jim Banks:
Right.
Jim Banks:
And for me, it's always been about, in
Jim Banks:
order to address the fraud, you need
Jim Banks:
to understand what the ways in which it
Jim Banks:
might be done in the first place are.
Jim Banks:
So how, how does that kind of work
Jim Banks:
with, with a neuro, I mean, what,
Jim Banks:
what sort of things are you finding.
Rich Kahn:
Well, it's.
Rich Kahn:
Fraud.
Rich Kahn:
Basically, whenever it's doing
Rich Kahn:
fraud, let's face it, it's a lot
Rich Kahn:
of fraud comes from overseas.
Rich Kahn:
So if you're getting a lead for
Rich Kahn:
somebody in Middletown, Delaware,
Rich Kahn:
who wants a new roof, and the
Rich Kahn:
IP address comes out of India.
Rich Kahn:
It's kind of obvious, like you,
Rich Kahn:
you know, and fraudsters know this.
Rich Kahn:
So what they do is they gotta
Rich Kahn:
bounce off of an IP address.
Rich Kahn:
So they would bounce off a US IP address.
Rich Kahn:
Then people would say, wow, this guy came
Rich Kahn:
from Florida, but yet he's in Delaware.
Rich Kahn:
Like, it doesn't make sense.
Rich Kahn:
So now they started taking advantage
Rich Kahn:
of one of the newer attacks.
Rich Kahn:
It's been on only for a few
Rich Kahn:
years, called residential proxies.
Rich Kahn:
So for example, I ever get free
Rich Kahn:
VPN service and I, I talk to people
Rich Kahn:
and, and you know, some people,
Rich Kahn:
yeah, I've got the free VPN Service.
Rich Kahn:
That's great.
Rich Kahn:
Did you read the terms and conditions?
Rich Kahn:
No.
Rich Kahn:
You scroll past, hit submit.
Rich Kahn:
I go, well, if you read through
Rich Kahn:
that, it says that they can use
Rich Kahn:
your internet connection and your
Rich Kahn:
IP address while you're using their
Rich Kahn:
service or for using their service.
Rich Kahn:
This is how you technically pay for it.
Rich Kahn:
'cause in life, you know,
Rich Kahn:
nothing is truly free.
Rich Kahn:
There's always a cost, right?
Rich Kahn:
And the cost here is they're taking
Rich Kahn:
advantage of your IP address.
Rich Kahn:
So now I live in a town where
Rich Kahn:
there's maybe 50,000 people.
Rich Kahn:
There's probably a percentage of those
Rich Kahn:
people that have free VPN services where
Rich Kahn:
people can tap into those IP addresses.
Rich Kahn:
So now when they fill out a form
Rich Kahn:
using my information, they can
Rich Kahn:
bounce off of somebody's residential
Rich Kahn:
IP address and it looks like,
Rich Kahn:
oh, it's a Middletown IP address.
Rich Kahn:
It bounced off of this.
Rich Kahn:
So it looks like it's would be okay.
Rich Kahn:
This will all make sense.
Rich Kahn:
So they're spoofing themselves,
Rich Kahn:
they're hiding themselves,
Rich Kahn:
they're doing something.
Rich Kahn:
And that digital fingerprint is
Rich Kahn:
something that we're experts at reading.
Rich Kahn:
So when we can identify that the
Rich Kahn:
visitor that is interacting with the
Rich Kahn:
web asset that we protect is falsifying
Rich Kahn:
some of their information in some
Rich Kahn:
fashion, that's when we can identify
Rich Kahn:
'em and say, okay, there's a problem.
Rich Kahn:
I, I'll give you an example.
Rich Kahn:
real world example.
Rich Kahn:
Most fraud detection systems in the, in
Rich Kahn:
the past, and I hate to say to this day,
Rich Kahn:
rely on IP address and user agent, right?
Rich Kahn:
That's their only way of surviving.
Rich Kahn:
Like, Hey, I can take a look at
Rich Kahn:
the IP address and I can tell
Rich Kahn:
you where it's coming from.
Rich Kahn:
I can tell you if it's been, there's
Rich Kahn:
certain things that they can look for.
Rich Kahn:
And in some cases, like I said, it
Rich Kahn:
will find some legitimate fraud.
Rich Kahn:
and it's still used to this day.
Rich Kahn:
And some people don't have a choice.
Rich Kahn:
That's all they have to be able to use.
Rich Kahn:
And it's, it's not a bad product,
Rich Kahn:
but it's limited in scope, right?
Rich Kahn:
IP address, user agent, two things.
Rich Kahn:
Well, let's play that out.
Rich Kahn:
IP address we scan all of a
Rich Kahn:
sudden shows up at Starbucks.
Rich Kahn:
All right?
Rich Kahn:
So, you know, you got hundreds of
Rich Kahn:
people walking in outta Starbucks
Rich Kahn:
probably using their wifi.
Rich Kahn:
So you can't block Starbucks
Rich Kahn:
because it's Starbucks, right?
Rich Kahn:
You know, you're gonna have a lot of
Rich Kahn:
legitimate people, but it's possible if
Rich Kahn:
fraudster walks in and bounces off their
Rich Kahn:
IP address and does some shady stuff and,
Rich Kahn:
but you can't block the entire IP address,
Rich Kahn:
otherwise you blocked real people.
Rich Kahn:
Next thing we, next thing those, the
Rich Kahn:
solutions will look at is the user agent.
Rich Kahn:
Oh, it looks like it's a
Rich Kahn:
properly formatted iPhone 17 Pro.
Rich Kahn:
Everything looks good.
Rich Kahn:
So normally you would say, okay, I have
Rich Kahn:
to allow this visitor through because
Rich Kahn:
it meets all the criteria for this type
Rich Kahn:
of fraud scan, which is an IP address.
Rich Kahn:
User agents known as A-G-I-B-T scan,
Rich Kahn:
a general invalid traffic scan.
Rich Kahn:
Now what happens is our software comes
Rich Kahn:
along and scans that visitor, and
Rich Kahn:
we'll collect over 800 data points
Rich Kahn:
on that device, looking at all kinds
Rich Kahn:
of stuff, how the data interacts with
Rich Kahn:
each other, how the data comes to us to
Rich Kahn:
confirm if there's something going on.
Rich Kahn:
And in this instance, you know, just to
Rich Kahn:
give you an example, not to give away
Rich Kahn:
secret sauce or anything, but to give
Rich Kahn:
you at least one data point to look at.
Rich Kahn:
We check to make sure it has
Rich Kahn:
a touchscreen and we find out
Rich Kahn:
it doesn't have a touchscreen.
Rich Kahn:
Well, every iPhone ever
Rich Kahn:
built has a touchscreen.
Rich Kahn:
So if it's saying that it's an
Rich Kahn:
iPhone and there's no touchscreen,
Rich Kahn:
that's suspicious, right?
Rich Kahn:
So now we wanna look and find
Rich Kahn:
out is there any other data that
Rich Kahn:
can back up our findings to say
Rich Kahn:
that this is a spoofing attack.
Rich Kahn:
And once we have enough data, then we
Rich Kahn:
can say confidently with 100% certainty,
Rich Kahn:
Hey, this is not a real device.
Rich Kahn:
And then someone can
Rich Kahn:
do something with that.
Rich Kahn:
You know, maybe not let them fill
Rich Kahn:
out the form, maybe not let them
Rich Kahn:
charge a credit card, maybe let them
Rich Kahn:
log into the system, like whatever,
Rich Kahn:
whatever they want to do in a real time
Rich Kahn:
environment, they can do that because
Rich Kahn:
now they know this person is fraudulent.
Jim Banks:
A bit like when you're
Jim Banks:
watching like a a, a sort of a sprint
Jim Banks:
race or at the Olympics or something
Jim Banks:
like that, they have the gun that goes
Jim Banks:
off and they have the reaction time.
Jim Banks:
And if, if somebody is less
Jim Banks:
than 0.1 of a second, then
Jim Banks:
they've basically a full start.
Jim Banks:
And, and I think when you look at things
Jim Banks:
like lead generation, if there's a,
Jim Banks:
let's say it's a seven field form, right?
Jim Banks:
There'll be a certain amount of time
Jim Banks:
that people would be expected to be
Jim Banks:
able to fill that form in, right?
Jim Banks:
And quite often you might find that the
Jim Banks:
form has been filled in, in half a second.
Jim Banks:
And you're like, there's
Jim Banks:
no way on this earth.
Jim Banks:
I mean, I know it's difficult because
Jim Banks:
I have a lot of, AutoFi, right?
Jim Banks:
So I have a auto fill and I'll
Jim Banks:
fill it in kind of that way, right?
Jim Banks:
But it's, that that used to be one of the
Jim Banks:
things that we would look for is how, how
Jim Banks:
quickly did the form get submitted, right?
Jim Banks:
And if it's submitted in half a second,
Jim Banks:
and it should be more like a minute
Jim Banks:
and a half, then you know that it's,
Jim Banks:
it's not being filled in by a person.
Jim Banks:
But that, as you say, it doesn't,
Jim Banks:
it doesn't necessarily mean that
Jim Banks:
that's always going to be fraudulent.
Jim Banks:
Just something that you need to, to
Jim Banks:
kind of like put another sort of a pin
Jim Banks:
in it and, and back and, and have a
Jim Banks:
look at it in a little bit more detail.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
And that's one of the things that we
Rich Kahn:
use to separate ourselves from other
Rich Kahn:
companies and other fraud vendors
Rich Kahn:
in the, in the marketplace, is we
Rich Kahn:
call that a false positive, right?
Rich Kahn:
You like having some type of
Rich Kahn:
metric that most of the time it,
Rich Kahn:
it points to fraud, but it's not
Rich Kahn:
a hundred percent of the time.
Rich Kahn:
So could you imagine if a real person
Rich Kahn:
came in, had autofill set up BBBB,
Rich Kahn:
fill out the form in five seconds and
Rich Kahn:
hit submit, and then all of a sudden
Rich Kahn:
your fraud filter fill out up and
Rich Kahn:
said, oh, I'm not gonna allow this guy
Rich Kahn:
to make this purchase because I think
Rich Kahn:
he's fraud and he's not that costly.
Rich Kahn:
I'll give you an example of that.
Rich Kahn:
We had a, content writer that was
Rich Kahn:
working for us, and she went over
Rich Kahn:
to a fashion site she's been to
Rich Kahn:
many times before she filled her
Rich Kahn:
shopping cart, and it was a Saturday.
Rich Kahn:
She filled up her shopping cart with
Rich Kahn:
a couple hundred dollars worth of,
Rich Kahn:
you know, clothes went to submit.
Rich Kahn:
And all of a sudden I
Rich Kahn:
thought she was fraudulent.
Rich Kahn:
She's like, that's odd.
Rich Kahn:
But she goes, I work for a
Rich Kahn:
fraudulent company, so I get,
Rich Kahn:
I think I know how this works.
Rich Kahn:
Let me switch browsers,
Rich Kahn:
switch browsers didn't work.
Rich Kahn:
She says, you know, let me switch devices.
Rich Kahn:
Still couldn't make the purchase.
Rich Kahn:
She says, all right, I give up.
Rich Kahn:
I'm gonna go to the competitor.
Rich Kahn:
She went to the competitor, put all
Rich Kahn:
the stuff in the shopping cart, hit
Rich Kahn:
submit, made the purchase, she says,
Rich Kahn:
and, and she went about her business.
Rich Kahn:
So that false positive just
Rich Kahn:
cost her that company a sale.
Rich Kahn:
But what she said was the most interesting
Rich Kahn:
thing about that, she goes, from now
Rich Kahn:
on, I'm just gonna go to this new
Rich Kahn:
competitor's site because I don't want
Rich Kahn:
to have the issues or the headaches of
Rich Kahn:
dealing with the old, the old company
Rich Kahn:
that I used to buy tr buy clothes from.
Jim Banks:
Yeah.
Rich Kahn:
they just
Rich Kahn:
lost a customer for life
Jim Banks:
Yeah.
Jim Banks:
That's
Rich Kahn:
the false.
Jim Banks:
used to, they
Jim Banks:
used to drive me mad.
Jim Banks:
I mean, at, at one point in time, I,
Jim Banks:
I opened an office in Hong Kong, so I
Jim Banks:
was going backwards and forwards from
Jim Banks:
the UK or the US to, to Hong Kong.
Jim Banks:
And I would land in Hong
Jim Banks:
Kong at three in the morning.
Jim Banks:
And, would go to, ATM to get
Jim Banks:
some cash out and the bank would
Jim Banks:
decline the, the transaction.
Jim Banks:
Even though I'd phoned the bank and
Jim Banks:
said, look, I'm gonna Hong Kong, I'll
Jim Banks:
be there at such and such a time.
Jim Banks:
I said to 'em, look, if you see any
Jim Banks:
transactions in Hong Kong, it's me.
Jim Banks:
they wouldn't accept that
Jim Banks:
I had to speak to somebody.
Jim Banks:
sometimes it's, I, understand
Jim Banks:
they're trying to help me and
Jim Banks:
they're trying to protect me.
Jim Banks:
And no, not, not sort of incur spend
Jim Banks:
expenditure, but at the same time, when
Jim Banks:
you've done a 13 hour flight, three in
Jim Banks:
the morning, the last thing you wanna
Jim Banks:
have to do is to have to talk to some
Jim Banks:
call centre to try and verify that
Jim Banks:
you are actually who you say you are.
Jim Banks:
That's always a, a challenge, right?
Jim Banks:
But,
Rich Kahn:
So that's, that's a problem
Rich Kahn:
in our space is the false positive
Rich Kahn:
rate is, you know, we've been tracking
Rich Kahn:
it, you know, some vendors as high
Rich Kahn:
as 50% false positives, you know,
Rich Kahn:
'cause they're just trying to make 'em
Rich Kahn:
look like they're doing a good job.
Rich Kahn:
If one of the things that sets us apart
Rich Kahn:
is we have, we have actually a written
Rich Kahn:
guarantee to our clients that we are
Rich Kahn:
99.999% accurate when identifying fraud.
Rich Kahn:
We don't want them worried about,
Rich Kahn:
especially in the performance
Rich Kahn:
marketing sector, we don't want
Rich Kahn:
them blocking real transactions.
Rich Kahn:
You know, 'cause we know
Rich Kahn:
that hurts their business.
Rich Kahn:
So again, we, we have a no false positive.
Jim Banks:
it
Rich Kahn:
Yeah,
Jim Banks:
in the ecosystem.
Rich Kahn:
sure.
Rich Kahn:
Yep.
Jim Banks:
yeah, I mean like,
Jim Banks:
so I know that in the affiliate
Jim Banks:
space, I mean there's a lot of
Jim Banks:
people that are sort of nomadic.
Jim Banks:
They kind around all
Jim Banks:
over the place, right?
Jim Banks:
Quite often people will use VPNs to
Jim Banks:
log onto their Facebook account to
Jim Banks:
kind change ads and things like that.
Jim Banks:
And again, sometimes they get their
Jim Banks:
business managers shut down because
Jim Banks:
the signals are all wrong, right?
Jim Banks:
They kind go, well, this person's
Jim Banks:
normally in the UK and now all of
Jim Banks:
a sudden they're in Thailand or
Rich Kahn:
Yep.
Jim Banks:
Philippines, or what have you.
Jim Banks:
And I, I have always kind said, sometimes
Jim Banks:
it's much better in advance of going
Jim Banks:
to put the, the feelers out there to
Jim Banks:
say, look, I'm going to be away, or
Jim Banks:
find a way of, like logging onto your,
Jim Banks:
your machines remotely and, and kind
Jim Banks:
just do everything through that, right
Jim Banks:
through a, a sort of a, an Astro pad
Jim Banks:
workspace or something like that, that
Rich Kahn:
Sure.
Jim Banks:
to log onto a remote device and
Jim Banks:
just do what you need to do from there.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah, definitely.
Jim Banks:
where, where do you think
Jim Banks:
the, the, you terms of like the, the,
Jim Banks:
the growth of Anor has been phenomenal.
Jim Banks:
And I know you just got on the Inc 5,000
Jim Banks:
again, so congratulations for that.
Jim Banks:
where do you think the kind of
Jim Banks:
the industry is, is going in terms
Jim Banks:
of the next three to five years?
Jim Banks:
What, what sort of challenges do you see?
Jim Banks:
What opportunities.
Rich Kahn:
Well, it's, you know,
Rich Kahn:
obviously you can't get away from a
Rich Kahn:
conversation without talking about ai.
Rich Kahn:
AI is, but the way I tell people
Rich Kahn:
is, look, we've had machine learning
Rich Kahn:
for years, so do fraudsters.
Rich Kahn:
AI has been out for a couple years now.
Rich Kahn:
Fraudsters have it.
Rich Kahn:
So do we, like, it's just another tool.
Rich Kahn:
It, is it gonna invalidate
Rich Kahn:
solutions like us?
Rich Kahn:
Absolutely not.
Rich Kahn:
Because as they use AI to improve
Rich Kahn:
their, their techniques, we use
Rich Kahn:
AI to improve our techniques.
Rich Kahn:
And, but what I feel is that 10 years
Rich Kahn:
ago, maybe there's things you could do
Rich Kahn:
internally as a brand or as a marketer,
Rich Kahn:
to try to solve some of the fraud issues.
Rich Kahn:
today's standard, you need a
Rich Kahn:
third party fraud solution.
Rich Kahn:
you cannot get away with, you
Rich Kahn:
know, for several reasons.
Rich Kahn:
One, from the optics, like if you're,
Rich Kahn:
you know, a major platform like
Rich Kahn:
a, a searcher, a social network,
Rich Kahn:
you know, having your own internal
Rich Kahn:
fraud solution is good for you.
Rich Kahn:
But, you know, people wanna see a
Rich Kahn:
third party that doesn't have, you
Rich Kahn:
know, doesn't have a basically,
Rich Kahn:
you know, a, vested interest in
Rich Kahn:
selling you fraud traffic, right?
Rich Kahn:
They want a third party.
Jim Banks:
that, that's one of the
Jim Banks:
challenges, like I find that, you like
Jim Banks:
I've always kind maintained, like with,
Jim Banks:
if you are, if you're a a, know, an
Jim Banks:
advertiser running ads on Google, you
Jim Banks:
want people to click your ads, right?
Jim Banks:
Because a better click through rate leads
Jim Banks:
to a kind of stronger quality score, which
Jim Banks:
leads to cheaper, cheaper traffic, right?
Jim Banks:
And Google has no incentive at all
Jim Banks:
for finding and fixing fraud, right?
Jim Banks:
Other than performance, right?
Jim Banks:
Because gonna be driven by, if you
Jim Banks:
spend a lot of money and you don't
Jim Banks:
make any sales, then you're gonna go,
Jim Banks:
well, I'm not gonna run ads on Googles.
Jim Banks:
It doesn't work, right?
Jim Banks:
That's typically the reason
Jim Banks:
people will stop, right?
Jim Banks:
But I, I've always kind maintained,
Jim Banks:
sometimes a little bit of fraud is
Jim Banks:
probably okay, but not too much, right?
Jim Banks:
I don't think as, as an advertiser, you
Jim Banks:
would want to have too much fraud, but
Jim Banks:
you want to have some click through.
Jim Banks:
Otherwise, you if nobody clicks
Jim Banks:
through your ads at all, right?
Jim Banks:
Yes, you're paying for the traffic.
Jim Banks:
and it's pay per click.
Jim Banks:
So you, you don't pay for impressions
Jim Banks:
and you might go, well, that's great,
Jim Banks:
but if you get a load of impressions
Jim Banks:
and no clicks, then you're never
Jim Banks:
gonna make a sale at all, right?
Jim Banks:
So
Rich Kahn:
Sure.
Jim Banks:
just trying to find the
Jim Banks:
balance of, of getting the right
Jim Banks:
amount of traffic, but equally turning
Jim Banks:
off the buttons that can lead to all
Jim Banks:
of the problems in the first place.
Jim Banks:
There's so many things that,
Jim Banks:
that people can do to prevent
Jim Banks:
these sorts of things happening.
Jim Banks:
And they blame the platform quite often.
Jim Banks:
It's, they've made their
Jim Banks:
their own mistakes.
Jim Banks:
They're responsible for what they've done,
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Jim Banks:
Like things like, you
Jim Banks:
again, if you run a campaign with
Jim Banks:
the Google Display Network turned
Jim Banks:
on, then yes, the quality of the
Jim Banks:
traffic is going to be poorer, right?
Jim Banks:
The traffic will be cheaper, there'll
Jim Banks:
be lots more of it, potentially, right?
Jim Banks:
And you need to find a way of
Jim Banks:
understanding who they are and what
Jim Banks:
they do and how they interact, right?
Jim Banks:
But if there is going to be
Jim Banks:
fraud, it's unlikely or less
Jim Banks:
likely to be from Google search.
Jim Banks:
It might be a search network
Jim Banks:
partner, but it definitely will
Jim Banks:
come from the display network.
Jim Banks:
And it's just trying to balance out
Jim Banks:
the, the risk kind, risk reward scenario
Rich Kahn:
Yeah, for sure.
Jim Banks:
So, so what else, what
Jim Banks:
else kind of do, you see other than
Jim Banks:
the AI kind of challenge in the
Jim Banks:
next
Rich Kahn:
it's, it's at a point now
Rich Kahn:
where, like I said, if you're, if you're
Rich Kahn:
digital marketer spending any, any
Rich Kahn:
decent amount of money in the space,
Rich Kahn:
you need to have a third party fraud
Rich Kahn:
solution helping you, backing it up.
Rich Kahn:
And, and this is what we do for people.
Rich Kahn:
Like, you know, 'cause a lot of people, a
Rich Kahn:
lot of your audience might be wondering,
Rich Kahn:
like, do I have a fraud problem?
Rich Kahn:
Quick answer is yes.
Rich Kahn:
and I'll give you an example.
Rich Kahn:
Like last year over $750 billion
Rich Kahn:
was spent on digital marketing.
Rich Kahn:
And our very conservative
Rich Kahn:
estimate estimates that 165
Rich Kahn:
billion was stolen by fraudsters.
Rich Kahn:
So it's not a question of if you
Rich Kahn:
have fraud, it's a question of how
Rich Kahn:
much fraud are you dealing with?
Rich Kahn:
So I, I tell everybody, and this is
Rich Kahn:
one of the things that we do a, as
Rich Kahn:
part of our process, you know, bef I'm
Rich Kahn:
a developer, I wanna solve a problem.
Rich Kahn:
So if a customer comes to me, my job
Rich Kahn:
is not one, let me sell 'em a product.
Rich Kahn:
It's number one, do they have
Rich Kahn:
a problem that I can solve?
Rich Kahn:
If yes, them logically we should be
Rich Kahn:
doing, we should be working together.
Rich Kahn:
So what we've done to make this,
Rich Kahn:
this answer that question for me
Rich Kahn:
and for potential client is we run a
Rich Kahn:
traffic, a free traffic quality audit.
Rich Kahn:
And the whole idea behind the traffic
Rich Kahn:
quality audit is to understand
Rich Kahn:
the traffic quality that you're
Rich Kahn:
getting and answer two questions.
Rich Kahn:
One, how much fraud are you dealing
Rich Kahn:
with percentage wise of your traffic?
Rich Kahn:
Right?
Rich Kahn:
Just get that number
Rich Kahn:
right out in the open.
Rich Kahn:
And number two, where is it coming from?
Rich Kahn:
Once the client understands
Rich Kahn:
those two things, they can make
Rich Kahn:
a decision whether our software
Rich Kahn:
is the right, right fit for them.
Rich Kahn:
If they had 1% fraud and eh, maybe
Rich Kahn:
they can deal with it, they, they're
Rich Kahn:
just gonna live with the 1% fraud.
Rich Kahn:
I don't think I've ever, I don't
Rich Kahn:
think I've seen anybody with 1% fraud.
Rich Kahn:
It's always been higher, right?
Rich Kahn:
But they come to us and they have
Rich Kahn:
30% fraud and it's like, okay,
Rich Kahn:
there's something going on and I
Rich Kahn:
show them where it's coming from.
Rich Kahn:
Nine times outta 10, the client knows.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah, that kind of makes sense.
Rich Kahn:
Or the, the, the, the you're
Rich Kahn:
connecting dots that I, I thought
Rich Kahn:
existed then we could sit down
Rich Kahn:
and have a, you know, a game plan
Rich Kahn:
with them on, on how our software
Rich Kahn:
could be used to solve the problem.
Rich Kahn:
But like I said, it, at that point,
Rich Kahn:
they know what the problem is.
Rich Kahn:
They know how much money
Rich Kahn:
is being lost to fraud.
Rich Kahn:
So like, I'll just do, let's just
Rich Kahn:
use a hundred grand, like you're
Rich Kahn:
spending a hundred grand a month
Rich Kahn:
on digital marketing and all.
Rich Kahn:
I find 30% of that's fraudulent.
Rich Kahn:
You're losing $30,000 a month to fraud.
Rich Kahn:
You're basically giving $30,000
Rich Kahn:
a month to the fraudsters.
Rich Kahn:
Now if we can solve that
Rich Kahn:
for a fraction of that.
Jim Banks:
Wait, the, the problem
Jim Banks:
is you're probably giving,
Jim Banks:
you're giving a hundred thousand
Jim Banks:
to the, the platform, right?
Jim Banks:
And the frauds might be only
Jim Banks:
getting 15,000 of it, right?
Jim Banks:
The other 15 is kind being kept, right?
Jim Banks:
The, the, the, the network's
Jim Banks:
getting all the money, right?
Jim Banks:
You are identifying that
Jim Banks:
there's 30% fraud, right?
Jim Banks:
So the, the frauds may or may not
Jim Banks:
get paid that 30% based upon the
Jim Banks:
fact that, you people that they're
Jim Banks:
working with may have identified a
Jim Banks:
certain percentage, but not all of it.
Rich Kahn:
Well, that's the goal.
Rich Kahn:
So now what we're trying to do is
Rich Kahn:
say if I take that 30 grand and
Rich Kahn:
instead of you investing in fraud,
Rich Kahn:
which has zero true conversion value
Rich Kahn:
and move it over to an audience that
Rich Kahn:
converts, now you see a jump in roas.
Rich Kahn:
You see a jump in ROI, you see a jump
Rich Kahn:
in sales, and now you start to feel
Rich Kahn:
the difference of what a software
Rich Kahn:
like ours brings to the table.
Jim Banks:
Again, I, I, I think it's,
Jim Banks:
it's one of those, I think a lot of
Jim Banks:
people don't know what they don't know.
Rich Kahn:
Yeah.
Jim Banks:
of people assume
Jim Banks:
that everything's good and
Jim Banks:
lovely and, and what have you.
Jim Banks:
They, they keep looking at, they,
Jim Banks:
they keep looking at the wrong thing.
Jim Banks:
quite, they might look at the
Jim Banks:
pricing of their products or their
Jim Banks:
website or whatever it might be.
Jim Banks:
And I, I'm not saying that those aren't
Jim Banks:
important pieces of the puzzle, it's,
Jim Banks:
it's also important to kind include
Jim Banks:
the integrity of the traffic that's
Jim Banks:
coming through from various sources.
Jim Banks:
And, and you say, if there's a, a fraud.
Jim Banks:
So, so if there, if, let's, let's say you
Jim Banks:
do identify a fraudulent source, right?
Jim Banks:
How, how, how are you able to kind of
Jim Banks:
like eliminate that from the person
Jim Banks:
having to kind for that traffic?
Rich Kahn:
That gets a little crazy.
Rich Kahn:
It all depends on where they're buying.
Rich Kahn:
If they're buying from affiliates,
Rich Kahn:
programmatic search, social
Rich Kahn:
networks, like every network's
Rich Kahn:
got a little different thing.
Rich Kahn:
But a lot of times we'll identify
Rich Kahn:
the, the network and then, you know,
Rich Kahn:
or the, or the audiences and, and
Rich Kahn:
basically build an exclusionary
Rich Kahn:
audience to avoid that audience group.
Rich Kahn:
sometimes it is simple.
Rich Kahn:
If it's affiliate marketing, we
Rich Kahn:
can identify the actual affiliates
Rich Kahn:
and prevent them from getting paid.
Rich Kahn:
If it's programmatic, we can actually
Rich Kahn:
tell 'em the domains that's coming from
Rich Kahn:
so they can put those on our block list
Rich Kahn:
and prevent them from advertising on those
Rich Kahn:
domains that have high levels of fraud.
Rich Kahn:
It, it's a custom plan for everybody
Rich Kahn:
'cause they, you know, everybody's
Rich Kahn:
got a different mix of where
Rich Kahn:
they're buying traffic from and
Rich Kahn:
that's how we kind of focus on it.
Jim Banks:
Cool.
Jim Banks:
Good.
Jim Banks:
And if, if people wanted to kind of like,
Jim Banks:
uh, reach out and talk to you, little
Jim Banks:
bit more about sort of the solutions,
Jim Banks:
maybe take advantage of the, kind of
Jim Banks:
audit you were talking about, what would
Jim Banks:
be the best place for them to kind that?
Rich Kahn:
Two places you can
Rich Kahn:
get me directly on LinkedIn.
Rich Kahn:
Rich Kahnn, easy to find.
Rich Kahn:
I don't hide all my information,
Rich Kahn:
all my contact information is there.
Rich Kahn:
if you're trying to learn more
Rich Kahn:
about this or get a traffic
Rich Kahn:
quality audit, that we offer for
Rich Kahn:
free, just go to Anura a NUR a.io.
Rich Kahn:
I'm sure you'll put that
Rich Kahn:
in the notes somewhere.
Rich Kahn:
And what's nice about our site is
Rich Kahn:
we've been building content for
Rich Kahn:
years, so we've got hundreds of
Rich Kahn:
blogs, dozens and dozens of eBooks.
Rich Kahn:
We've got a comprehensive guide on fraud.
Rich Kahn:
and of course, you know, throughout the
Rich Kahn:
site, as you're going through the site
Rich Kahn:
and learning, when you're ready, you can
Rich Kahn:
click a button and, and talk to one of
Rich Kahn:
our experts, and they'll set you up with
Rich Kahn:
a traffic quality audit so you can see
Rich Kahn:
for yourself exactly what's going on and
Rich Kahn:
if there's a need to use our service.
Jim Banks:
As you say, I'm pretty sure
Jim Banks:
that everyone needs to use your services.
Jim Banks:
Just they don't realise that they do.
Rich Kahn:
Yes.
Jim Banks:
Good.
Jim Banks:
Well, rich, thanks so much
Jim Banks:
for being a terrific guest.
Jim Banks:
As you mentioned, like all your
Jim Banks:
details will be available in the
Jim Banks:
show notes after we the episode live.
Jim Banks:
It only remains me to say thank you
Jim Banks:
so much for being a terrific guest
Jim Banks:
and, look forward to talking to you
Jim Banks:
in, in person at some point in time.
Jim Banks:
In the future event, if you're out
Jim Banks:
back, at, back over in, UK or London
Jim Banks:
at any point in time, just, be good
Jim Banks:
to kind catch up, give, give my
Jim Banks:
my regards to your lovely wife who
Jim Banks:
obviously I had the opportunity to
Jim Banks:
kind and have dinner with as well.
Rich Kahn:
Appreciate it.
Jim Banks:
that, uh, you, you, you have
Jim Banks:
a sort of family business, which is good.
Jim Banks:
but uh, yeah, be, be, be good to,
Jim Banks:
uh, reconnect at some point in
Jim Banks:
time in the not decent future.
Jim Banks:
And for anyone else that's kinda watching,
Jim Banks:
as I said, it just remains for me to
Jim Banks:
say thank you so much for listening in,
Jim Banks:
watching in, and we'll see you on the
Jim Banks:
next episode of Digital Marketing Stories.
Rich Kahn:
Thanks again.
Jim Banks:
Fantastic.
Podcast Host
Jim is the CEO of performance-based digital marketing agency Spades Media.
He is also the founder of Elite Media Buyers a 5000 person Facebook Group of Elite Media Buyers.
He is the host of the leading digital marketing podcast Digital Marketing Stories.
Jim is joined by great guests there are some great stories of success and solid life and business lessons.
CEO and Co-Founder
Rich Kahn is a digital marketing veteran and serial entrepreneur with over 33 years of experience in the industry.
As the co-founder and CEO of Anura.io, Rich has established himself as a leading expert in digital advertising and ad fraud prevention.
His journey began in 1993, and since then, he’s built five multimillion-dollar internet companies through bootstrapping.
Anura is a 3X INC. 5000 growth company.
