The Marketing Mistake You’re Making That’s Killing Your Business

if I get a young kid and we've got six millennials ourselves,

so therefore, the kids will go, oh, dad, that was so yesterday.

And I say, and I, I bring the book up and I say, it doesn't matter that back

in the day that I did this, it might've been television on radio and magazine.

Now it's Facebook and it's linked in same principle.

It doesn't matter.

The ideas have not changed.

It's just the communication platform.

That's all.

Yeah.

I mean, like you, you keep seeing so many people now, the, the, the kind of

young, younger people of, of today, the kind of teenagers and what have you.

They keep talking about you gotta have hooks, you gotta hook

people in the first five seconds.

I'm reading Claude Hopkins book, 1923.

It was written and he keeps talking about the hook, the hook, the hook, the hook.

It's this is not a new principle.

It's not like all of a sudden somebody's all of a sudden found

the, they've invented electricity.

it's been around for forever, right?

That's the way business was always done.

Yeah, but because they've listened to Frank Kern or, or, Russell Brunson

or any of the cool kids at lunchtime, they've come up with phrases that if

they looked at those books from 50 or a hundred years ago, it's the same thing.

Exactly.

All, all that's happened is the communication platform has changed.

Simple as that.

Yeah.

I spent a long period of time, like basically.

Analyzing in really gory detail.

That whole information, product, sales process, the way it was all

packaged right there, was it almost there was like a cartel, right?

You mentioned Frank Kern.

He was, he was involved with it.

There was a guy who sadly has died now, called Andy Jenkins.

he was part of it, right?

A called Mike Filsaime, Rich Schefrin.

I mean, there was a kind of big group of people and they just, I, I mean

it's they took it in turns to come out with a new information product, right?

That was, that was to all intents and purposes, a repurposed version of the

same thing that they'd done previously.

There was a guy called Jeff Walker who was like the mastermind behind the, the

kind of the product launch formula, right?

Where he said, you do these sort of four live events where you lead up

to the launch of the product itself.

and, and ultimately what you do is you, you, you build up your list, right?

So then you have a, a great list.

You obviously make a lot of sales, you have a lot of

people that promote your list.

They're, they're the other people in the group, right?

And they take it in turns to do the launch, right?

so ultimately what will hap what will happen is I'll have the best list, right?

So the next person down is gonna be the next person to

have the product coming out.

So they spend time producing their product, right?

So they mail it, they mail it, they get a ton of sales, they

make their money that way.

All the incidentals, the people in the sort of second, third

tier, they make their money.

But in the process of doing that, they obviously loosen people off their list.

Because people go, I don't want that.

so they unsubscribe, right?

And ultimately, the, the kind of the person at the bottom end,

bottom end of the list is the, the person who has just had the launch,

but they've got the biggest list.

So they do okay.

And eventually what happens is they bubble their way back up to the top.

And it used to just be in this sort of cycle, right?

But they were regurgitating the same thing over and over again, but just

calling it something different, right?

They had all these kind of great, cool names for, for what was,

Frank.

Frank Kern had mass control, and then it was mass control 2.0.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and again, they, they would, from time to time, they would

invite people into the, to the cartel.

And, and, and I think the, the one that kind of got me was there was a

guy who was sort of a, a big affiliate marketer, guy called, Jeremy Shoemaker.

his name was Shoe Money, Who saw himself as a big deal.

and, and again, he, he wanted to break into that cartel, right?

So eventually they invited him in, so he brought his big list of people that

he had, but they never really I don't think he ever got to the point where he

bubbled his way to the top of the list where he was the guy who had the product.

He just promoted other people's stuff along the way.

and then probably burnt his list in the process of, of doing that.

I've, I found myself taking part in some sort of mastermind type of events.

you get invited along, you pay a bunch of money to go to them, right?

And you, you are the person that ends up.

People end up talking to you and stealing what, and I'm thinking, hang on, I paid

to be here and, and I'm giving away all of the stuff that I you know, that I have.

I mean, like I, again, I would pull up a laptop show, show people some

of the things that we were doing in, online advertising and paid

marketing and that sort of thing.

And people are like, this is, this is very different than most of the stuff that we

see when we go to talk to other people.

I mean, again, people always go, oh, I've got a Facebook rep, or I've

got a Google Ads rep, and it's yeah.

But I, I just think, if you, if you, unless you're in the trenches doing

this stuff day to day, you don't really understand some of the nuances

and the real great things that can push you over the top and really make

the difference to what's going on.

I mean, you've, I've always said my, my battle is to try.

And understand.

I mean, yes, Google and Facebook and everyone provide me great platforms

to with which to do the work.

So I've always maintained, I've got a mutual hate, hate

relationship with them, right?

I hate them, they hate me.

But we have to collaborate because I need them and, and really they need me, right?

I can bring advertisers to them, right?

That they may not necessarily have otherwise.

A lot of people become very sort of platform centric.

They might go, I'm only gonna run on Google, or I'm only

gonna run on Microsoft, right?

Or I'm only gonna run on Facebook, or I'm only gonna run LinkedIn.

And I can bring an omnichannel vision to it and say, well look,

I can bring you a different vision to how this might play out, right?

So I'm bringing new advertisers, net new advertisers to their platform,

which makes a huge difference to their overall bottom line.

so they appreciate that.

But at the same time, I think they want to obviously then try and force their

way upon the advertisers I bring to the table and I. It doesn't work that way.

No, of course not.

No.

I've done a, a fair bit of speaking at events where you go to like

keynotes and things like that and, the event organizer they might do

like a, a, a speaker's dinner, right?

you go along to the speaker's dinner.

You're expected to go along to the speaker's dinner?

I always used to, because again, to me it's it's more, it's more

than just me standing on stage.

It's about the whole experience of accessibility, as you say, accessibility

to me of the people in the audience that may have specific things.

'cause I never know what, I'm delivering a presentation that,

that covers a, a broad brush, topic.

but they may have specific questions that they have about their business

that I didn't answer on stage at that particular point, point in time, and

they want to come and ask me that.

so what what, what I found was that some of the events that I went to, the, the

speak they had the speaker's dinner, and then on occasions what they would do is

they would, open it up so that, if you wanted to pay maybe another a thousand

dollars for a ticket, you could actually attend one of the speaker's dinners.

So you got the opportunity to kinda sit and have a meal with the speakers.

So it was a more of an informal environment, but, but I've also

been to events where, there would be a speaker's dinner.

Right where speakers were expected to go, but, but the speakers themselves had a

different kind of agenda and they would organize their own dinners for their own

kind of VIP people, peel them all off.

So the people that that paid a thousand dollars expecting to see, all of the,

the kind of the keynote speakers and what have you, would find that half of

them weren't actually at this dinner.

So again, I would feel very put out if I dropped a grand on a ticket for

a, a meal that probably cost 50, 80 bucks or whatever, and the rest was

on the, the meet and greet and the kind of the access accessibility and

there was no accessibility, right?

No, and how, how hard is it to enjoy dinner and talk to a few people?

It's pretty easy.

Yeah.

But I think a lot of, a lot of people let the, their own ego and self-importance

put them on a pedestal above everyone that kind of is in that audience.

I mean, I, I know I'm, I've come from a very humble sort of

business starting point, right?

Certainly when I got into digital marketing, I was this close to

bankruptcy through no fault of mine.

but, but it was like when you've got to that point where you are on the verge

of having absolutely nothing at all, you appreciate every single dollar that

you make from that point forward, right?

And you understand the value of money far better than I think

a lot of people do, right?

And you also understand the value of relationships far better

than most people do, right?

Because you realize how, how important they can be to your overall kind of

good, good goodwill and health and, and wellbeing, but also your financial good

health and wellbeing as well, right?

Oh, you're dead, right?

No, you, you're dead.

And my story mirrors yours.

I mean, we've been there too.

I mean, when you're an entrepreneur, there's no such thing as the

merry grand as the rollercoaster.

Up and down.

Yeah.

I mean, and I, I think it's, it's, it's very interesting that

a lot of people, they, they only ever talk about their successes.

And I was kind of like liking it to gamblers.

Gamblers only ever tell you about their big wins.

They never tell you bake about the big losses and the, having to

borrow money to get a taxi home.

'cause they've spent every single penny they've got.

I mean, I used to one of my first jobs when I, I, I grew up in sort of

Hong Kong, so I lived in Hong Kong for 20 years, and then I came back to

the UK in the sort of mid eighties.

And, one of the first jobs I had was I, I worked as a, I I really, I was really

into horse racing in Hong Kong, right?

It's a big thing in, in Hong Kong.

Huge, huge, huge thing.

The Hong Kong Jockey Club.

so I was really into horse racing.

I had a lot of friends that were jockeys and trainers and, and what have you.

and footballers.

'cause I was a, a kind of a, a, a footballer back in the day.

and what was really interesting is that a lot of the, the kind of, That industry

was, again, it was just fascinating.

There's lots of tipsters and, TV pundits and what have you.

and obviously when I came back to the UK I thought maybe I can get a job

working in, in, in a bookies, right?

So I got a job working for Lab Brooks, which is a kind of big bookies over here.

and, and what what was really interesting is that, like what what would happen is

you, you would, I, I worked in, in a place called Slough, which is anyone that's

watched the UK version of the office.

It's very famous for, for that.

That's where the, the, the, Ricky Eva's, office was based.

so Slough was where I was and, and it's where the Mars Company

had their factory, right?

So every time I would go to the office, all I could smell was Mar bars, right?

It was, it was just a horrible smell.

but, but a lot of the people that used to come to my, my shop, they were

people who worked in factories nearby.

It was a big industrial estate nearby.

and we were like.

Chinese restaurant, one side pub, the other, right?

So we had all Italian restaurants, so everything was, was geared up to the

people who would gamble in, in, bookies.

So Chinese, big gamblers, Italians, big gamblers, right?

People that worked in factories, big gamblers and people.

And what would happen is people would come into the bookies.

They would come in on a, say Thursday with their pay packets.

It used to be in the old days, it was a pay packet with cash in it.

They would tear the, the kind of the strip off the top.

They would put a couple of bets on, go to the pub, absolutely pissed right?

Then come back, see how they their, their horses or dogs or whatever it

was that they'd bet on did right.

They'd win, they'd lose or what have you.

And, and again, I, I would have I would see situations where people would

tear open that pay packet, which was their pay packet for the whole week.

and they would basically spend the whole thing in, in one hit

in the pub and in the bookies.

And, I remember one, one particular day I was in the shop, this woman came

in and she said, I want my money back.

I said.

What do you mean?

She goes, my fucking husband's been in your bloody shop

and he spent all my money.

He got three kids at home.

I can't feed them.

I dunno what I'm gonna do.

And I said, look, listen, I really, really, I sympathize

with your situation and I can't imagine what that must be like.

But if he had come into my shop and won a ton of money right.

And I had to come knocking on your door and said he was pissed, he

was, shouldn't have been in there.

He spent all, he, he spent all his money, you would not give me the time of day.

So it kind of like, it, it swings both ways,

Oh, good analogy.

And, and, and, and that's, that was always the challenge, right?

And it was always one of those things.

There, there, there was a lot of aggression in there.

I mean, I watched people have fingers chopped off because of fights.

And it was just like a. Horrible environment to be in.

but, but again, a, a sort of a fascinating environment to

see just the type of people.

I mean, like we had the big race in the UK called the Grand National.

And you'd, on Grand National Day, it'd be the biggest betting

day in the whole of the uk.

We used to take crazy amounts of money in the shop, For,

again, for the mid eighties.

It was an insane amount of money that we used to take over the counter.

And it was one of those things that if you, if you actually look at it in the

cold, harsh light of day, the whole.

Thing of the betting on it is completely stacked in the favor

much as we were talking about the, the whole genius network.

And it's stacked in the favor of the, the people that like at the

high echelons make all the money.

And the people at the bottom are the ones that, the stupid ones that pay for it all.

and it's the same thing in that sort of betting sphere.

The, the bookies are the ones that are making tons and tons of money.

'cause they've stacked the book against, you making any money

and they're gonna make all the money regardless of who you win.

So it's like 40 rate, 40 horses in the race.

They couldn't give a monkeys in most cases.

I think they might be, one or two years where there's been one or two horses

that has cost them a bit of money.

But generally speaking, that's the race they love because

they make the most money.

'cause it's stacked, all the odds are stacked in their favor.

But I would have on that particular day.

Some people will come up and go, I mean, bearing in mind it's a four and

a half mile steeple chase race that usually takes about nine minutes to run.

And, it's, it's 30 fences or something.

I mean, the, the, the full rate is, is really high.

if the weather's bad, it's even higher, right?

You can have a straight horse run in front of you.

So even if you are on the best horse ever always jumps around perfectly.

Could be taken down.

You could unseat the rider 'cause it just puts its foot in

a hole or something like that.

So there's so many things can kind, can go wrong, but I had in one particular

year, out of the 40 horses that were in it, 35 people came up and said,

Jim, I've had a tip that this person, this, this horse is gonna win the race.

Right?

35 different horses.

And I'm like, okay, whatever, whatever you, whatever you say, that's fine.

but, but

funny you should bring that, that story up, Jim, because my wife

must have drawn the short straw.

Her father was a compulsive gambler and lost three houses when they

were growing up, all on the horses.

And then she marries an entrepreneur, and of course, like yourself,

we've had a rollercoaster ride.

So I said to her, you must have just chosen the, the short straw.

Yeah.

And, and, and again, I think that's, I think the thing with,

with, with business now, right?

And I think a lot of, I think a lot of the reason, I mean, I see so many

people who are parallax by the fear of failure that they just don't make a

decision to do anything at all, right?

They sit, sit, sit in a job that they hate, right?

Earning a pay packet that, they think they're worth more.

And I mean, again, if you think they're worth more, you've gotta

go and fight for it, right?

You're just not gonna get it.

I mean, they don't, people talk about, I get paid a bunch of money.

It's well, sometimes you don't necessarily get paid.

It.

You, I, I think you need to earn it, right?

I mean, a lot of people don't earn the money.

They get paid, they get paid money, but they don't necessarily earn it, right?

I mean,

Take the public, take the public service, for example,

Yeah.

but, but again, I, I think to go back to, to your sort of

background in marketing and sales.

I mean, your, your business is the Institute of Wow, right?

I mean, how, how did you come up with that as the name?

I mean, to me it's like a, I think it's a phenomenal name.

How did you come up

Yeah, I mean, we wanted the Wow Institute, but it was all gone.

Even when we get set this up whenever it was many years ago, but

the Wow Institute was gone, that would've been easier to pronounce.

But yeah, look, it, it is only because, when you see something

that's attractive, whether that's a Happy Meal toy at McDonald's,

your answer's gonna be, oh, wow.

Yeah, and it's, it's interesting.

I mean, I, I always like I, I always I, I like to tell stories, right?

I think that's one of the reasons I say I think a lot of people like

sitting down having a drink with me.

'cause I've got a lot of stories, right?

So some people go, oh, I don't have any stories.

I'm like, well, you probably do.

You just don't know necessarily how to tell them, right?

So I think most people have stories, they just don't really know how to

convey them in, in a way that kinda makes them entertaining, right?

I think, sometimes you have to add an element of, flare and

charisma to it and, and everything

Yeah, dead right.

You mentioned Ricky ves before, and I mean, that's what he excels at.

He tells great stories.

Yeah.

Just gimme one second.

yeah, so I thi I think, So going back again, going back to the sort

of late eighties, early nineties, I, I went through this phase where

I used to go night clubbing a lot.

I used to enjoy it.

I, I used to enjoy dancing, drinking, and, one particular night I'd gone to,

to this club and, and this club, was in a place called Maidenhead and, in, in the

UK sort of fairly close to where I lived.

And, they, they happened to have the, and, and it's in a, a

sort of county called Berkshire.

So they happened to be having a Miss Berkshire competition

on, in this club that night.

so they had obviously the mc who was interviewing them, and they had the

sort of swimsuit and they had the, the evening dress and everything else.

So I was stood.

at the top of the stairs as these girls were coming out to, to to

go on to, to do their bit right.

And, and I'm just stood there just going, you look very nervous, you'll be fine.

Don't worry.

You'll be absolutely fine.

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.

So I'm, I'm literally just, again, I'm talking to these girls and,

my friend's going, what you doing?

Whatcha you doing?

Whatcha you talking to these girls?

I'm like, well, they, they, they're just people, right?

and, he goes, yeah, yeah, but they, they, they're in this competition and

they're beautiful and you are ugly.

And I'm like, doesn't matter.

And, and, and, and what was really interesting is that, that the

girl who, who, ultimately ended up winning the competition, right?

So she won the competition and she was there, I think

her, her sister was with her.

I think even her mom and dad were there, right?

So she was sitting at a table.

She's got this sort of Tiara from winning the, the thing, she's got the sash over

her head and at the end of the, the evening, in, in the club, they happened

to do, the last sort of 15, 20 minutes of the evening they put on slow dances.

So I just thought, you know what, she's sitting over there.

Beautiful girl.

She just won this competition.

I thought, I'm gonna go over and ask her if she wants to dance.

And my friend goes, don't be silly.

There's no way she'll dance with you.

So I just I, I said, look, just watch.

So I literally, I walked over right.

Held my hand out like that to her and just said, do you wanna dance?

And she looks up and she goes, yeah, I'd love to dance.

So she got up and had a dance and we had a good old dance around, right?

And she said, well, well it's really good.

I, I'm really pleased that you came over.

'cause I was sitting there talking to my mom and dad.

I felt a bit, strange kind of being there that, that, they're in a club where I

could normally be having a great fun.

I said, yeah, it's fine.

I mean, I, I think they're obviously very proud of you.

You've done well to get.

Do this and hope you do well.

'cause obviously they go on to then become a contestant in the Ms.

England competition.

I think so.

it's just like a progression.

and my friend goes, well, you know what, you know what, what did you do that for?

I said, well, the worst that could happen was she'd say no.

I mean, that was it.

I mean, there was, there was never, she wasn't insulting me,

bug her off, piss off, whatever.

She, even, even she'd have said that.

It's still knows.

It doesn't matter.

and I, and I've always been amazed at how many people are frightened to make

a decision to do something right for fear of failure, feel of rejection,

feel of, and I'm like, well, the worst that can happen is nothing will happen.

Or, people will say no to you.

You got it.

And, and I'm just, again, I'm, I'm amazed how many people

are stuck in a job they hate.

Frightened to leave, oh, I won't be able to find another job.

It's well, unless you try, you'll never know.

Yeah.

And I mean, your, your answer could have easily been to your buddies at the time.

Look, I wasn't gonna lose an arm or a leg.

It was just a no, And, I, my six millennials that I've got, they've all

got their own jobs and careers these days, but I just try to encourage them to, and

a couple of 'em have got their own jobs.

One is an accountant and, and he's doing very well, and the other one likewise.

And I just say to them, look, jump.

I mean, make sure you've got a safety net under you, because

unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to do that when we had some failures.

But I mean, make sure that you're not stupid about it, but just jump,

give it a shot, and I, I, I can't say there's anything wrong with that advice.

Again, not to jump if it's something stupid, but just give it a shot.

yeah.

And don't, don't, and obviously don't put everything on the line.

Don't mortgage your house to to do a red or black on the casino

wheel or something like that.

I mean, that's crazy.

But, Yeah.

But I mean, I think, I think, if you have a strong idea, again, talk to somebody

that, that can help you just be a, a bit of a sounding board, devil's advocate.

Call it what you want.

Say what, what do you think?

And again, they might give you some good advice.

Again, I've, I've had some, what I thought was great ideas, bounce them off.

People I considered to be mentors to me.

And they've gone, Jim, that's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life.

I'm like, okay, I'm glad I came and talked to you about it.

'cause I could have gone and thrown it.

And, but equally, there are times when I haven't spoken to anyone and

I've launched something and it's been a complete and abject failure.

And I just, again, I've, I've said.

I call it a failure.

It's like I just know something else not to do, not to try.

For, so for me, I, it is just, again, I think some of it is

just, it's the whole experience of learning as you go along, right?

I mean, the whole point of becoming a podcaster wasn't because I

wanted to go, well, I'm gonna go and try and take on Joe Rogan.

It was just, I just wanted to try it and see what, see what it was like

and see if it was any, if, see if I was good at it, see if it was fun.

It's a lot of fun.

I love doing it.

It's great.

I've had some phenomenal guests, including yourself and, and, and for,

for me, that's, that's what it's about.

It's about having a conversation with somebody in a lot of cases

when, when I first started, I just.

I chose the people who I knew, people that were from win within

my existing circle of connections.

But what I've done now is I've cast that net much, much wider and further.

And and that's how I came across yourself.

I mean, I, again, we'd never met before we connected on that Zoom

call for the very first time.

And again, I feel like, I feel we could be sitting here with a couple

of beers and, and having a good old chat and, and going out for, for

an evening on, on the tiles in the

well, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's, that's

what makes a good podcast.

If it's, if it's not fake and it's just having a beer with a mate, across the

table, then that's why it's successful.

And in your instance, you're down to earth and people say to me,

what do you mean down to earth?

I said, well, Steve Irwin, the crocodile hunter, here in Australia,

who unfortunately passed away, but I mean, he was down to earth.

Paul Hogan, the act, the other crocodile, Dundee guy and the people

like that who are down to earth.

I mean, even Ricky Ves, he appears to be when he is off doing, not doing his

shows, but he seems to be down to earth.

Everybody, they're attracted to people who are down to earth.

So that's why you've gotta a successful podcast, I'm sure.

Yeah.

And, and interestingly enough, I mean, as much as Ricky Gervais jokes about his

wealth now, I mean, he's, he's definitely not forgotten his humble roots, right?

Where he came from.

He's f not never forgotten any of that at all, right?

Which I think is a, is a good thing, right?

I love the gag that I saw him do where he said, oh, minority groups, there's all

these people out there that are saying, that, they're in a minority group and they

don't get treated, properly because they might be, transsexual or what have you.

He said, I'm in the smallest minority group in the world, 1% of millionaires.

And he said, we don't get treated properly either, he said, how do you think I feel?

so

mate, I'll try and make that, I'll try and make my answers to whatever

questions you have as interesting as possible so that you keep your audience.

But I'll give it my best shot,

Well, you, you've done a phenomenal job thus far.

I mean, for, for me it's, again, I, I, I, I, I tend to like record my episodes

in, in and then just pick the sort of salient bits from the conversations

as we go along and, and that kind of constitutes what, what ends up the, the

the final end, end item that we have.

I've, I've looked at it, I, I, I see a lot of people that are podcasting now

and they're actually finding some success with doing like live podcasts where they

take it out on the road and they go and, go into an arena and they have the, the

microphones on stage and everything else.

And I keep thinking, would, would I wanna do that?

I mean, for me part of it would be, again, I've been in bars before

where I'm talking to people again.

They're not necessarily people from my circle of.

industry connections and what have you.

But again, just randos.

I mean, I, I used to say to people, I, I remember sitting in a bar at

something like four in the morning.

I was on stage at nine 30.

The next morning I'm sitting in a bar with a guy with one

leg, a gay guy, and a cowboy.

And, none of whom I knew and none of the, none of whom were from, from my industry.

And I'm going, this is as random as it gets, right?

I mean, and, but, but for me, it was the fascinating conversation.

And I mean, I think again, a lot of it was they, they were, they had

nothing in common with each other.

Nothing in common with me.

But because of that, we were, the thing we had in common was we were in

that bar at that given point in time.

And I think sometimes it's, it is just that sort of the opportunity

to take advantage of your proximity to a particular situation.

And knowing how to, how to turn it into something that can be of value, right?

Without co coming across as salesy.

So maybe, maybe you can kind of like answer that in

terms of how do you do that?

How do you not be the dick that kind of stands there and and turn something into a

sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, sales.

Like right from the get go.

Oh, look, I think it's pretty straightforward.

You just make sure that you tell the, the, the failures as

much as you highlight the wins.

because there's a lot of, I mean, I, I've got, my 25-year-old,

decided to go to the New York Film Academy because every 20 something,

they all wanna be videographers.

And I told him some stories about how fake the seminary industry is.

And that, all these people up on stage showing the Miss World Wife

and the Maseratis and all of that.

And of course they've got nothing in the bank, but it's all a show.

And, when I got on the seminar circuit, I saw that loud and clear.

And so he came home one night and he said to me, oh dad, I came first in

the, class at the New York Film Academy for coming up with a new sitcom.

I said, oh, okay.

Well what was that?

He said, look, it's based on the premise of the office, but given

all the stories you've given me over the years about, the fake seminar

speakers, it's called the Seminar.

And I went, oh no.

And I said to him, that cannot hit the TV screen on YouTube because these

people will know where it came from.

Because the actual show was about someone who was.

Outside of the seminar industry and the corporate world came into the

seminar industry and then realized that a lot of them were fake.

And, I said, no, no, you can't let this happen.

and I was only joking because obviously I'd support him, him

in whatever he wants to do.

So he is in the process at the moment, putting together some scripts, and one

of them has the seminar speaker up the front writing on a whiteboard, SCAM.

Okay.

But it stands for super community of advertisers and marketers,

but it's really spell stand.

Like it.

yeah.

I, I, I think given that, I think most people would recognize that the seminar

industry or what we call the consultancy or the, the information marketing industry

has got a lot, a few cowboys in it.

I think if you're in that game and sounds like you are, and I am, then

yeah, to combat that skepticism, you've just gotta be real.

You gotta tell them that you wins and losses.

You just gotta be real.

But I think, I think, I think for me it's, it's, again, I think sometimes

the, the people who are selling, I mean, again, I, I know it sounds like we've

been bashing some of the people that have come out with these information products.

I think, I think the reality of it is, is that, if people got it,

I mean, again, I've, I've bought some of these before, again, just

outta curiosity, not necessarily because I thought, wow, there's

gonna be all this new stuff in there.

I just wanted, again, I wanted to see what the packaging looked

like, the kind of behind, see what it was like behind the scenes.

and, and what was really interesting to me was it was really well written,

well put together, comprehensive, right?

I mean, again, in the early days it was like a big box of CDs and,

and whatever else, rather than, now it would just be de delivered.

Digitally completely.

Which again, reduces the, the kind of, the cost of friction, but it

also, makes it much easier for people to come up with a competing

product, like right out the gates.

And also to, to steal things, right?

But, but I think it's, what, what for me was quite interesting is the reason

that I think so many people fail, right?

I mean, I know that the, the kind of chargeback rate or the refund

rate was really high for some of these information products, right?

Because people go, well, I, I got it.

And, and nothing happened.

It's well, yeah, but what did you actually do with the information, right?

Because I think that's the, the thing.

It's not just a case of getting the information, it's actually

having a plan of what to do with it once you actually have it.

And I think that's the bit that I think a lot of people struggle with.

So what, what are your thoughts around, should it just be the

information product itself?

Should there be some sort of community that goes with it, whether it's a

kind of Facebook group or a Slack or something like that, that kind of

gives people an element of community, like people that can bounce ideas

off, like they can pair up with.

I mean, again, I've always said it's just about facilitation, right?

You, you need to be there to help facilitate, facilitate

these relationships taking place.

So again, if you are a person that does one thing and you need a videographer,

then this person does a videography, then you should talk to them and you

can do something collaboratively, right?

And it's something that they, they'll benefit from earning some money

from you and you'll benefit from getting their expertise from them and

everyone wins as a result of that.

So what, what are your thoughts in, in terms of that.

to answer that question though, in terms of, I, my view on the coaching

consulting world, for small to medium sized business, it's tough because there's

only a percentage of small to medium sized businesses that can implement.

And what I found throughout the, 10 years, we've been involved in smaller businesses.

Is that the butcher baker candlestick maker, is normally a husband and

wife business, and they might have one or two or five staff, but they

just don't have time to implement the stuff that I would give them.

I could give them any one of a number of things through, this

gigantic, dossier of direct

What does that cost to buy, by the way?

Just outta curiosity,

well to print this costs $420 a book just to print what you've learned.

So what I do is that I actually, when people join the program, I just give

them this, and these days, obviously we've got a digital version so we

can hand it out virtually for free.

but in the days that we were selling, like annual coaching programs, I would give

this to it's leather bound and it's got the gold tipped edges and all of that.

And seriously, although I'm sounding a bit like a wanker at the moment, but inside

here, I didn't put the ones that failed and there was plenty of them, by the way.

But I put all the winning, marketing campaigns in there and it's everything

from the million, million dollar, giveaways with Lloyds of London,

ensuring the prize to the, the, the puppy dog sale for the pet shop,

through to, scratch bingos and all sorts of different things in there.

And over the years, because I've done all this stuff with McDonald's and KFC and

all, seven 11 and all these businesses, there's quite a number of, well, not

quite a number, there's a massive number.

Of case studies in there that people can just rip, rip off,

or should I say ethically swipe.

but I came to the conclusion a few years ago that it was almost impossible to,

expect that the small business owners were going to implement the ideas that

I would give them, even down to the stage where they won't collect data.

I can guarantee, Jim, that you can go to any restaurant in the

world and you can spend two or $300 there with your wife tonight and

they will not get your details.

Okay?

Even though Amazon has been around for a long while and has

taught everyone the value of data, you can go to go to McDonald's.

McDonald's don't care who you are, they don't collect any data.

KFC doesn't collect any data.

And the crazy thing about the world that we live in is hardly anyone but Amazon

and a few online smarties collect data.

It's absolutely crazy.

The butcher that you go do to get your stake, he doesn't collect any data.

And if you think about it, I mean, again, so I know that the McDonald's have like

a, a sort of loyalty program where you can scan a QR code and everything else.

But again, if you think about it, like if I go to McDonald's, which

I don't, I tend not to now, right?

I used to go there quite a bit from time to time.

but when I would go to McDonald's, I'd always have exactly the same thing, right?

'cause I enjoyed the things that I would have.

I'd always have a Big Mac, I'd always have medium fries.

I'd always have a drink.

And quite often I would go, I'd either have a, a Mac fish

or a, some chicken nuggets.

And that would be what I would have every time I went.

And you would think they would go, oh, this is Jim, this is

his, his typical, or they, they, they could always go same again.

They'll be up, same again.

It would be much

Not only, not, not, not only that, Jim, I mean, we've got the only rest

as a client, the only restaurant in the world that's full with 150

seats every night of the year.

So 365 nights a year, this client of ours is full, and it's very, very simple.

He was spending $750,000 a year on radio and television

and, and Facebook and so forth.

And he came to one of my, seminars and, he liked what he heard.

And he came up at the end of it and joined the program and I said to him, well, let's

get rid of that $750,000 expense that you're giving to Zuckerberg and other

people, and I'll show you how to fill your restaurant every single night of the year.

And he said, we've got 150 seats.

I said, yep, that's fine.

Now he's a seafood restaurant called the Lobster Cave, and, he's in Melbourne,

Australia, and it's an upmarket.

Seafood restaurant.

So therefore you're talking BMWs and Mercedes are parked outside, right?

And so therefore, RA doing the radio advertising and TV advertising in the

greater area of Melbourne was absolutely ridiculous because his target audience

were about three or four miles around his restaurant that were the rich people.

And, I said to him, oh, you would do is we will actually get your, waitresses,

to simply put a little name and address paper, not an app, not a QR

code, just a little name and address.

A bit about the size of maybe an ace of diamonds, and it said, win dinner for

10 of your friends at the end of the month and put your name and details in.

the only detail we're really interested in, of course, was the

mobile cell number, the phone number.

And so what happens is that every afternoon, he still does it now, this was

some music ago, but he still does it now.

he just simply, the girl, he gives the girls, all the guys 50 cents for every

name and address, contact detail they get.

So when the waitress comes up to give you the check at the end of the meal

and there's four or five of you that have had a dinner for lunch, it might

be a business luncheon, she puts four or five of these entry forms in front

of you and invites you to actually fill them in to have the chance to end.

Dinner for 10 of your friends.

She stands there whilst they get the pen out and put it in.

She's not gonna miss out on 50 cents.

50 cents, 50 cents, 50 cents, right?

As it turned out, he's got 92,000 on that list.

Now it's a few years down, but he's got 92,000, which is a pretty

decent database for a restaurant.

Every afternoon at three o'clock, he sends out a text message and I've given

him 2025 text messages, and that text message goes out and says, if it was

myself and my wife, it'd be, hi John.

Hey Gail.

It's chef Pierre here from the lobster ca restaurant.

Just wanted to let you know we have a special, $68 deal tonight, which is

a lobster tail meal for two, right?

As it turns out, nobody leaves that restaurant for less than $204.

A couple.

That's the average, right?

So it's it's bait.

It's bait and switch.

Yeah.

It's a seafood

'cause again, I mean, they'll have appetizers, they'll have

bottles of wine, beers or whatever it might be, desserts, coffees.

Just adds to the, to the overall cost of it.

I mean.

But the text message says that this offer ends in 10 minutes.

And I've been there.

He said to me his office is on top of the 155 seat restaurant.

He said, jd, have a look how this works.

And he calls in Marilyn, he's long suffering secretary 'cause

she's a bit sarcastic like me.

So she's had to put up with him and he says, tell JD how many

seats we've got booked tonight.

And she looks at it and says, oh, 78, whatever it might be, out of 150.

He said, well, you better send out jds BS message number four.

'cause I've given him like 20 of them.

And that message goes out as I said, we've got a special deal tonight, but

you gotta get in the next 10 minutes.

She walks in 10 minutes later and says, we're booked out full.

And if they're not booked out, then he sends out another 200 and another day.

He doesn't send out 92,000 every time.

Obviously that will annoy people.

and he's booked out every single night of the year, does absolutely no

advertising whatsoever because he's actually created an Amazon style list

and then milks the crap out of that.

And yet, the thing that amazes me, absolutely amazes me whether

I go into a coffee shop or a restaurant, or a butcher or a bakery.

Nobody but nobody.

But nobody collects data.

Crazy.

And if they say to you, oh, but there's a QR code on the counter,

nobody sees that unless McDonald's hands you something in paper.

Yes.

Old fashioned paper and says, here's a QR code.

Put your name and address into win a million dollars.

You ain't gonna walk up to the counter.

But, but equally, I mean, in quite, quite often it'll be, leave as a, leave

as a review on TripAdvisor or whatever it might be, which is fine, right?

Again, don't get me wrong, I mean, I think, I think having the ability to

increase your, your sort of visibility and your competitiveness in the local

escape landscape, compared to other people that are in the same space as

you is, is a good thing to do, right?

But, but at the same time, I mean, let, let's say I go, Hey, here's a, here's

a kind of QR code, and you scan it that will take you to the Google reviews

and whatever else you're expecting the people to log into their Google

account, put their name in, put all this sort of stuff that you've talked

about, and then leaving the actual written review and everything else.

And most people go.

You know what?

I don't wanna do that.

again, as you say, like if, if they're on their database, once, once you've

kind got them, you could just send them a link to their text message

and say, can you leave us a review to Google when they've got home?

And they, they might be sitting at a desktop and they can do it in a much

more efficient and effective way.

I mean, that whole thing with the, the, the paper genius, by the way,

again, if you, if you listen to nothing else on this episode, listen to that.

Play it back again.

I, I talk to so many small, local service-based businesses that say I

run a restaurant struggling to fill it.

That will probably be, again, I don't even know what's on your list of things.

I would probably say sign up for one of j, one of JD seminars.

that, that, that, that one doesn't even come in the top 10.

He says very boastfully.

But let me give you one that for every small business owner that might be

listening to this, it's free of charge and it will change your business overnight.

And it's called the Facebook contest formula.

And so therefore, there's a whole bunch of people out there giving

Zuckerberg money for nothing.

And the reason that, and, and Zuckerberg's not necessarily evil, it's just that

your ads are evil and they're bad.

I'll give you, this is basically you giving away your product or service as

a prize on Facebook and inviting people to win that prize by clicking the ad

and going through to a landing page.

And on that landing page, of course you click everything but their blood group.

and the best example of that would be, for example, a dentist that came on

board our thing about a few months ago.

He said, look, I wanna sell Invisalign, which are invisible, invisible braces

to children, that have rich parents.

In other words, he wants to sell them to rich parents.

'cause these things are five or six or $7,000 a time, by the way, you

need a payment plan to pay them up.

He said, the reason I want parents is because they will spend more.

Oh, sorry.

The reason I'm targeting children is because they will spend more money.

Parents will spend more money on fixing their children's

crooked teeth than their own.

I said, okay, so therefore, we ran a Facebook, contest and basically

said, win for your child, invisible braces to fix their crooked teeth.

And, he spent $30 a day on Facebook and got a thousand leads in the first

week, had a thousand entries, right?

We're talking, well, 991, but let's just say a thousand.

And then what happens is that he rings them up the, the following

week, and says, look, got some good news and some bad news.

Bad news is you didn't win the Invisalign braces, but obviously

you've got a child with crooked teeth.

You wouldn't enter a contest to win invisible braces if

your child had perfect teeth.

and this works for any product or service, by the way, mainly B2C B

two B's a bit different, but B2C, this is a winner for everyone.

I mean, we've, we're getting.

A thousand leads practically for every single client that's spending $30 a day,

in one week, a thousand leads in one week.

and if you're a lawnmower, you would just give away month's

worth of lawnmowing service.

And of course, you know that whoever enters that contest

is not living in an apartment.

So these are not leads.

These are, yeah, these are red hot leads.

So what happens is that we have an association with a

travel company that gives us a thousand dollars holiday voucher.

and we sell it to businesses for $50.

So this will give you three nights accommodation anywhere in the

uk, Scotland, right throughout Europe, America, you name it.

and these hotels have given up their, rooms for free to this

travel partner that we have.

and I've seen every travel scammer.

This is not one of them.

This is legit.

and what happens is that the hotels are happy to give up their rooms

for free in the hope that whoever stays there as a free guest will

spend money on food and beverage.

And so what happens is that we give these vouchers to the business, for

less than $50 each, which is 25 pounds.

and so therefore, basically the business then rings up the people

who didn't win, which is 99.9%.

And it says, listen, you didn't win the invisible braces, but we've

got a deal for you that obviously your child has, crooked teeth.

If you actually buy on our payment plan, or not, by Friday we will

give your family a free vacation.

Shut the gate.

It's all over.

So you've got your, you've got your lead generator in terms of the

contest, and then you've got your conversion tool in terms of giving

them a Happy Meal toy, which is the holiday to get them across the line.

The conversion rates for this are running at around about 15 to 20%.

And when they can't get to ring up all the thousand people, because

not many small businesses can we just send in our AI robot and the

robot gets a better conversion rate than the human would you believe?

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I, I can absolutely believe it.

And again, I was, I was just As you were talking, I'm thinking this is something

that you could probably put some sort of like an AI dialer and, and kind of like

some sort of chat bot that would automate that process to, to walk them through.

I.

we can ring 10,000 people in three and a half hours, so therefore

the robot just takes over.

And, we've got a real estate product that we're just launching next week, and what

happens is that real estate agents, as you well know, are, we're all looking for

appraisals because for every 10 appraisals they get, they might get two or three

or four listings, and that's where they make the money outta the commission.

but real estate agents, because they, a lot of them drove a bus last week and

not good marketers, despite the fact that their entire business is all about

marketing, but they'll put a picture of themselves on a leaflet and put it

in your letter box and say, we've got buyers in the area, so therefore we

need to know the value of your home.

Would you like a free valuation?

And of course, that's it.

That's it.

That's the end of it.

And I have said to them when I'm speaking at real estate conferences, well, if

you get three out of 10 appraisals, three of them turn into listing.

Why don't you just give out a million appraisals?

And they go, well, what do you mean?

And I said, well, just give out a million appraisals.

I mean, why wouldn't you don't ask 'em do they want one?

Just give them one for God's sake.

And so what we've, what we've got now is, our robots basically rang 10,000

homes in any postcode area, within half a day and gives, we've had a scraping

service that we have o overseas, and that scrapes the valuation of

every single home in those postcodes.

So the robot rings up and says, oh, look, hi, I'm Adam from,

real estate research company.

did you know that you're sitting on something worth $1.2 million?

And the house homeowner goes, what?

Well, that's the valuation of your home.

would you like to actually have a local trusted agent come in

and give that to you in writing?

And what we're finding is that around about, three out of, 10 we'll say yes.

And so what we are doing is we're delivering those

leads to real estate agents.

They're not just leads, they're red hot leads.

'cause these people have already, their heads exploded when they found out

what the valuation of their home is.

And all we're asking, would you like the local real estate agent to

actually, confirm that in writing.

And the reason I'm going through a couple of those case studies is because

I think what a lot of small businesses fail to do is think through the

scalability of what they might have.

And if you're a little cafe and you've only got, 20 chairs

and 20 seats or whatever in there, it is very hard to scale.

I understand that, but there's a whole bunch of businesses out there,

particularly with AI now, where you can scale overnight if you know how to do it.

Yeah, and I've, I've, I've seen local service businesses who try to do this

sort of specific targeting to only talk to people in a certain particular area.

And I'm like, yeah, but what do you do with the leads that come

into you from outta the area?

I mean, I've got, I've got a, a good friend who, she runs

like a, a florist business.

So she does, wedding, wedding flowers, right?

So she does flowers for weddings, right?

So she'll get the bride and groom to come along and she'll do a demonstration and

show them and all that sort of stuff.

And then she goes and sets everything up.

She says, she, she, I think she runs some Google Ads to get inbound leads for them.

so that's good in, in that regard.

but you know, she says quite often she will get people who, they may be

physically themselves in the location that, that, she covers, right?

But the venue that they want to have the wedding location is completely

outside of her jurisdiction, if you like.

And I'm like, so what do you do with those?

And she goes, well, I just decline them.

I'm like, why?

Why are you just declining them?

And she says, well, what do you mean and what, what, what should I do?

I'm like, we should be selling them to somebody else that covers that

particular geographic area to say, look, I'm getting leads for that area.

Would you like to buy a lead from me?

Because, I can't service it, but you might be able to.

Because that way, it's, it's something where she can reduce

her overall acquisition cost for the lead herself, right?

And, and improve her ancillary revenue from something other than

just Putting flowers together.

and I, I and I, I've never, I, I think a lot of small businesses don't

really do that lateral thinking.

Think outside the box and think beyond the sort of the boundaries

of where they happen to be.

And I

And you know why, you know why Jim is because no one ever taught them

that at university or college.

when you talk to any butcher, baker can stick maker, plumber, it doesn't

matter who they are, dentist.

I mean this dentist guy that we've just smashed, in terms

of numbers of leads for him.

So he is a pretty happy camper.

he said, look, this is just mind blowing.

I said, well, look, we do this for a living, so therefore we don't see it

quite as David Copperfield as you do.

But I said, tell me this, when you did your dental course at university, did they

ever teach you how to get any patients?

And of course, the answer's no.

And if you talk to plumbers, electricians, you talk to butcher's, bakers, candlestick

makers, they are very good technicians because that's what they learned to do.

But no one ever taught them how to get customers no matter

how many years they did at uni.

And so therefore, really you can't really, expect them to know this sort of stuff.

and I think that the thing is, is that, when you do what I've been doing,

you've gotta write books as I mentioned.

So the other one that I had to write was the Avalanche Leads formula.

So therefore, really at the end of the day, most of the clients that I have,

get Hugh Jackman to do that for you?

The cover?

Like you look very

That, that, yeah, that, that was me without the wrinkles.

That was a few years ago.

Yeah.

yeah.

So anyway, the thing is, is that they, they, they being business owners,

the main thing they want is leads.

if they can't convert, then I normally say, look, don't get a job,

because if you can't convert your own product, then there's something wrong.

But what most people need, you and I gem, are no exception.

And that is leads.

'cause you'd have to have the leads in order to close X percentage of them.

and what we tend to do is say to people, look, if you have a Me Too

product, which is a solar dealer, the solar dealer can say, look, my

solar panels are better because we get them from America instead of China.

But to, the woman who's making the decision at home Solar panel looks much

the same no matter where you get it from.

So we call it a me too product.

And if you're in a me too industry, and most people are, 'cause there's

very, very few people that are in this, the iPhone industry where Apple

is very different, and you don't have a differential, then the only

thing you can do is mark it on price.

And you and I both know how evil that is because it's a race to the bottom.

so to take people's eyes off the price, you need to have a wow factor.

My stuff is the Institute of Wow.

So therefore, you have to have a wow factor.

Now, whether that is look, and we call that a Happy Meal toy, an incentive.

I've got six children and they're all grown up now, but for a lot of years

the kids were young and we used to spend $7 million a year on Happy Meals.

because of the toy.

And if you've got, if you've got children, anyone listening to this

I, I've got grandkids now.

I can completely relate to that.

And I always say, you're not getting the toy until after you've eaten the food.

'cause if you give them the toy beforehand, food doesn't get

eaten and it's a waste of time.

Yep.

Yeah, me too.

We've got threes and fives and seven year olds as grandchildren as well.

And anyway, so the thing is, is that, I refer to as a Happy Mill toy and I did a

campaign for a bank down under, some years ago called the Greater Building Society

And for building societies and credit unions, you'd probably be aware, but their

target audience are working class people.

the banks tend to stick with people who have got a collar and tie.

And so this bank said to me, look, what should we do marketing wise?

I said, well, forget trying to take on the big guys on, interest rates for your

home loans because you're never gonna win.

You are not gonna win.

it'd be like a little general store taking on Costco.

You're not gonna win on price.

So I said, you have a honeymoon rate, don't you?

And they said, yeah, we have a 1% honeymoon rate for people

who come in and get a home loan.

I said, we'll give that to a travel company that I'd been doing some TV

commercials for, and they'll give you a discount rate on holidays.

And so that's what we did.

We came on TV and we said, get a home loan or swap it from one of the big

banks and we'll give you a free holiday.

They took, $15 billion worth of extra home loans in the first couple of years, and

this idiot who you're talking to, didn't charge a commission on the home loan.

So I took a fee.

It wasn't a percentage of revenue that would've been nice.

that would've been nice.

Then about the fourth year in, we decided to go up a level and I got

Jerry Seinfeld to do the ads, and so I'd fly back and forth to New York.

Sorry for the name dropping.

I, I just casually dropped that.

and it took some time to get him, but I got him eventually.

And, so for three years, Jerry Seinfeld came on TV in Australia

and said, swap your home loan to the grader and get a free holiday.

This thing went absolutely ape shit.

It went nuts.

It it,

people in Australia know who Jerry Seinfeld was?

Was he.

yeah.

Oh yeah, no,

Okay.

Alright.

Again, I, I, I was like, and I know Seinfeld is, is a bit sort of cultish.

I think a lot of people either know it and love it or have never

seen it before and go, who's he?

I,

Oh, yes.

Yeah, no, no.

He's very, very well known.

And yeah, so anyway, that went nuts.

And as a result of that, a, a holiday and it was a happy

military, that's all it was.

And every time bankers, which of course left brain people would say

to me, oh look, let's get them to jump through some hoops and, get

them to open up this account at that account and then they get a home.

I said, no, no, keep it simple.

Buy a happy meal, get a toy, get a home loan, get a holiday.

Stick to that.

Anyway, as a result of that, pretty hard to keep it a secret

when Seinfeld just spokesman.

So I got a call from a company in America.

And they said, we've got access to hotel rooms right around the world.

Uk, Europe, Australia, America, where the hotels are happy to give us the

room for free because they know that whoever stays there will probably

spend money on food and beverage.

And I said, well, go on.

And they said, we dunno marketing, but you obviously have half a clue.

So how about we join forces and we share the revenue?

So that's what we've done in this last few years.

We're specialized in giving particularly small businesses that are, that are me

too industry, like a solar dealer or a butcher or baker or car dealership.

And we say to them, look, we'll give you this voucher, which will give you

three nights accommodation at four star hotels in UK and right throughout Europe.

We'll give that to you for $50, which is whatever that is in UK currency.

and you use that as a Happy Meal toy.

So therefore they go on a test drive for your car dealership

and they get one of these.

'cause out of every 10 test drives, you're probably gonna close three sales.

or if they buy you loud suite or use your, lawn mowing services,

and it has gone absolutely nuts because you try looking for a better

happy Meal toy than a free holiday.

It just doesn't exist.

Yeah.

And, and, and I think, I think what what was quite interesting is that, I

mean, again, don't go back to, to when I used to sell insurance for a living.

again, I, I really enjoyed it.

It was a lot of fun.

One particular year, like the company I was working for, our, our,

our, in our, car insurance, motor insurance product was renowned to

be the most expensive on the market.

And it was expensive because it was really good if you ever had an accident,

You knew why it was worth, it was worth what, what you paid for it.

and, and most of the people that were selling we'd go out on their

patch and try and sell, right?

They might sell in a year, maybe 40 or 50 sort of car insurance products.

And they, they, they, they never even bothered talking to anyone about it.

And one particular year I sold 600 of them.

And that, I think the next person in the company thats sold 200, that was

the next best person to me, right?

And they said, Jim, how did you do it?

And I'm like, I just quoted everyone, right?

Everyone I told, I spoke to, I said, have I given you a car insurance quote yet?

And they would go, oh yeah, you've given me one.

Well, what about your wife?

Has she had one for her car?

What about your son?

Has he had one for his car?

And I used to just sit there and give them a credit.

And it was in, in the olden days when it was all carbon copy paper, carbon paper,

and you had to put it in triplicate and everything, write it all out.

Handwritten, there's no no printed stuff, right?

I had to do it all by hand.

And I said, look, there's, there's, there's a kind of quote,

let me know what you think.

And, when's, when's it due for renewal?

It's not June until July.

Well, I'll come back and see you in July.

And I'd make a note.

I'd always make sure I followed up.

Say, you, you've.

Renewals coming up and quite often the people had had an accident, that's when

they would switch 'cause they'd had a bad experience with the company they had.

and I, and I, I've always maintained that the only reason I sold more

than anyone else was I asked for more business than anyone else.

And that's the simple bottom line.

I mean.

Yeah.

You scaled yourself.

Yeah.

and

And, and really it, it, it is a numbers game.

We've got two Harley Davidson, dealers in Texas at the moment

running this vacation program.

And one of them, they heard me on a podcast ironically like this.

And, they said, oh, we've gotta do this.

And, they were going to give the vacation away.

and in America, the, the vacation destinations are unbelievable.

We're talking Orlando, Disney World, New York, Las Vegas, grand

Canyon, San Diego, all the hotspots.

And, of course they get this voucher for $50 when in fact

it's worth a thousand dollars.

So it's a pretty, that's why McDonald's Happy Meal Works because the toy is

made in China for 22 cents, but it looks like it's a $5 toy in Kmart.

So you want any, if you're gonna have an incentive, don't give them a $50.

Dining voucher because that's worth $50.

They know that.

Don't give them movie tickets because they know that's worth $50.

Give them something that's a low cost to you, but a massive perceived value.

And that's why this works $50, but it's worth a thousand.

And these two Harley Davidson dealerships, one of them said to me, look, we're gonna

give it away when we sell a $35,000 bike.

I said, no, no, no.

You're on drugs.

Okay, don't do that.

That's stupid.

And he said, but you're all about incentives.

Give them away when they purchase.

I said, yeah, when they purchase something for maybe a few hundred

or a few thousand dollars, but no one's gonna buy a bike for 35 or

$40,000 to get three nights in Vegas.

It's just not gonna happen.

You are on drugs.

And they said, well, how do we do it?

I said, well, tell me who buys a bike without going for a test ride.

He said, no one.

I said, okay.

And, outta 10 test rides, how many bikes you normally sell?

3.5. That's the average, right?

I said, okay, well, a bit like my real estate story just handed out a million

test drives or, or test rides for a bike.

And so we convinced them to run it whereby you get a free vacation.

If you have a test ride, because for every test, 10 test rides,

they saw three and a half bikes.

there, and there may be some people that will be, yeah, I'll do a test

ride 'cause I want the holiday.

And, and tho those would be a very, very small, small, small percentage.

But, equally, there'll probably be some of those people that, that

was their initial intention to, was to just get the, the free holiday.

But they'd like the experience so much that they end up kind of buying a bike.

And that's called collateral damage.

People always say to me, oh yeah, but you know, what about

if I say, yeah, no, no, no.

Stop the ifs.

stop saying why and start saying why not, Because the thing is, is that,

there will be collateral damage for any one of these mass appeal things.

There's gonna be people who slip through the cracks and that they will

be just, what we call price pigs.

They're only in it to get the prize.

They're not interested in the product.

But, that's just life.

Life is a percentage game.

So therefore don't stop doing something that's, really outside

the box, because there's a few people that will actually cheat.

You just have to live with that.

That's the way it is.

But, but, but I think, I think the thing I like about sort of like the,

the stories that you're talking about here, is you, you are bringing a sort

of a big business mentality with, the, the brands that you've worked with,

your, your McDonald's and KFCs and so on, but you're able to translate that

into a, how can I implement this in a local environment To maximum effect.

And that to me is like such an amazing.

analogy to

And, and Jim, what we do now, because we know they find it very difficult

to implement, is that we just give them the package and do it for them.

So yeah.

What I, I guess began to talk about, before, and I I I, I didn't probably

explain it properly, is that because we now understand that the implementation

is a real problem for a business doing under a million dollars because

it's a mom and dad business with one or two or five employees, we just

package it up and do it for them.

So when they actually buy, into this program, which is the holiday program,

we have a UK site, we have an American site, we have an Australian site.

We just do it all for them.

So therefore, we look after the Facebook for them.

we provide them with the vouchers, we show them what they should be doing

online with their homepage and so forth.

And really, that's what they want.

'cause when I take my car to the mechanic, I don't want him to

start telling me about the car.

Beretta.

I, I didn't even know I had a car, Barretta.

I just say, mate, here's the money.

Fix the car.

and I think that's really where all of us, the likes of you and I, because we're

advisors in the marketing field, I think we have to acknowledge that there's only

a percentage of people that can actually roll their sleeves up and get it done.

So if that's the case, just do it for them.

Just do it for them.

Yeah.

'cause I, I think, so that, that was always the thing I, I used

to get people would be, oh, Jim, just, send me a proposal and

I'll talk to my boss about it.

I'm like, no.

If, if, if we're gonna talk to your boss, I'm gonna talk to your

boss because no disrespect to you, you will not do the same job of

selling this proposition as I will.

And you want this to work, right?

You've told me that you want it to work, so help me to help you to deliver this to

your boss and get it over the line, right?

Because otherwise, like I said, you'll, you'll, you won't sell it with

the same panache, you won't be able to answer his comeback questions in

any way that kind of satisfies him.

They'll just go, oh no, we're not interested.

And then, and then it's a lost sale for me, lost opportunity for them.

And and again, I've, I've always maintained, I don't like leaving

people with something that they, they have a solution for that

they have been presented with.

This is the problem, this is the solution.

And then they don't end up taking the solution 'cause they're

still left with the problem.

And they haven't got a solution to that.

yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, look, we do a lot of the insured price promotion, so coming from a

contest background, I know that you cannot give away a week's worth of groceries

now and expect anyone to respond.

You can't give away a motor car and expect anyone to respond because the TV programs

have shown that you know who wants to be a millionaire or deal or no deal.

They're giving away hundreds of thousands of dollars, so they've set the bar higher.

Than what it used to be.

So when people say, oh, look, in a car, I think, oh, again, you're on drugs.

I mean, no one's gonna care about that, that, that they can

win a million dollars on tv.

And so what we do is a lot of prize insurance promotions

with Lloyds of London.

And and what happens is that if I don't get to talk to decision

maker, the marketing person, or wannabe marketing person that has

to explain, they've seen me on stage or they've seen me on a webinar.

So they go and talk to the boss and they say to the boss, let's

run the million dollar draw.

And of course the boss immediately goes, no, that's

gonna cost us a million dollars.

No, it's not.

It's gonna cost you $20,000.

Okay.

Because Lloyd's at London will give you the million dollar prize for 20 grand.

And unless I explain that to them, then of course they don't get it.

They just think, oh, a million dollars is gonna cost a million dollars.

And they, you know that, so you're quite right.

Unless, and that's why, things like this, your podcast and things like

webinars are so valuable because you get to, sell once to many.

You get to talk to many people and you can explain what's behind the curtain.

Whereas if they just see a snippet of it and then rattle off and think

that they can do it for themselves, generally speaking, they, they either

screw it up or they just don't do it.

so John, you do seminars, you have like a, a series of seminars

are, are they online seminars?

'cause obviously you're based in Australia, so a lot of my audiences may

be North American based or UK based.

Europe based.

So is it online stuff that they they can sign up to your seminars?

Do

Yeah, exactly.

Mainly these days online.

I mean, courtesy of COVID, I mean the running around, having to put a, a suit

on and, catch airplanes everywhere that, that sort of has dissipated, which,

you, do you miss it?

'cause I, I mean, I kind of like, I, I spent a lot of time traveling.

I used to, I, I used to go to a conference in, In, the Gold Coast.

So I used to fly into Melbourne, spend a couple of days in Melbourne,

then we'd fly up to the Gold Coast, beautiful place, love the Gold Coast.

And,

where I live at.

I'm on the Gold Coast.

I'm in Broad Beach.

I, I, I just, I just love the, the, the kind of the Gold Coast.

It's beautiful there.

And, and, but, but, but I, I found that, the, the trip to get there was, for

me, brutally, physically brutal, right?

I mean, it was just like 21, 22 hours, no matter which way you did it.

Whether you did Dubai and then Melbourne or Hong Kong and then Melbourne.

It didn't matter.

Like it was still a 14 hour flight and a seven hour flight, whichever

way you broke it up, right?

It's all the same thing is, you're not breaking it down any further.

and again, I think, think people say, oh, it'll be direct flights.

It's would you wanna sit for 15 hours on a flight for nonstop?

I mean, I just wouldn't wanna do that, right?

I need to get off and, and walk around a bit.

But do so Do you miss it?

Do you miss it a lot or.

you do.

Yeah.

And look, I'm a bit sarcastic and so therefore you miss the reaction that you

get when you're in a live audience because yeah, I mean, when I, I'll, I'll, I'll

have a hot seat and invite someone to come up and, and be on stage in the hot

seat and we'll bring up their website.

And generally speaking, as you well know, most websites are awful.

and so I'll ask them, who did your website, Stevie Wonder?

and then of course I will on the butcher paper, sketch out how it should

look because I'm reasonable artist.

And so therefore we can transform their website within an hour.

'cause what I have is a website designer at the back of the room

looking at my sketch, and he just picks up my sketch, and then basically

they take it to the next level.

Time the seminar's finished, there's a brand new website for that person.

And if that's not an influential thing, then nothing is because that person

signs up for our program straight away.

And there's a few other people in the room that, you know, so the seminars definitely

are better than webinars and more enjoyable, there's no doubt about that.

but yeah, look, when COVID came along, we all got used to doing Zoom,

exactly what we're doing right now.

So we do, yeah, we do Zoom pretty much mostly now.

I, I do the odd seminar, but really at the end of the day,

we got lazy because of COVID.

Yeah.

And I, again, I, I find, we were talking before we came on air that, that, a lot

of people, have this sort of situation where, their licensing's not very good.

Audio's not very good.

The, like the, the picture's not very good.

Background's not very good.

There's so many things that, that they haven't focused their attention on.

And I think so much of it is that certainly me, when I'm

watching people now present.

Quite often I'm drawn to that, the kind of, what does the sound like, right?

Again, I close my eyes and listen and if it's too grating, I'm like,

I'm sorry I can't listen to this.

And quite often I will just literally shut it down if the audio's okay,

but the video's not so good.

Maybe again, that's possible.

You can go, okay, well I can listen to it on Spotify and it's fine.

But, if the audio's not very good.

I, I think a lot of people, are frightened to invest in money in upgrading their kit.

It's not particularly expensive now.

It's getting cheaper and cheaper.

It is.

Each new iteration of microphones and sound decks come out.

and again, I'm, I'm just thinking if, if you make your living from

doing this type of stuff right, in an online environment, then you really

need to invest in the technology that will help you to do your job, right?

Yeah,

and so they could focus on what's coming out your mouth, not on what

the piece of kit in front of it is.

What I find though, Jim, is that, if it's any benefit to anyone that

might be thinking about becoming an advisor like you and I are, and Frank

Kern says this, and it's a very true statement, and that is, is that if

you can help people then prove to.

Prove that you can help them by actually helping them.

it just makes sense.

in other words, do what you do with all these podcasts.

And in my instance, because I can draw, and we pump out websites

in 48 hours versus, the be at hipsters, that can take months.

I will do a quick sketch and that quick sketch looks something like that.

And I know if somebody's listening, they can't see this, but if they're

watching it on video, so that sketch there will show the headline, it

will show where all the copy goes.

I will put A, B, C, D, so therefore, my Filipino website designers

will know exactly what to do.

and all of that's done pretty much within 20 minutes, 30 minutes because I can draw.

and of course the brief that goes to the website designer

is then a very detailed brief.

It's very unlikely that it's gonna have to go through, four or five, machinations.

and when I do that.

When you do it live on a webinar or on stage, there's no question that that is

absolute proof of what you can deliver.

And it makes a mag like a massive difference to the sales at the end of it.

so I would say to anyone that if you are going to become a coach or

consultant of anything, demonstrate your wizardry in front of people, whether

it be on stage or whether it be on Zoom webinars, because at, at the end

of the day, a lot of people hold back and think, oh, I'm not gonna tell 'em

that, that's my intellectual property.

And it should be privately, you pay money before I tell No, no, no, no.

Give them as much as you possibly can.

And it's funny, like you mentioned Frank Kerner.

I mean, I remember watching one of his programs and, he would do a

sort of a, a presentation on stage.

And again, he, he was super cool.

I mean, he, he's obviously got much shorter hair now, but he used to have

the long hair and the sort of scruffy gear and all that sort of stuff,

the surfboard.

Yeah.

And, and, and again, I was like, wow, that's a really cool look.

I mean, it's a look that I don't think either of you could ev you or I could

ever pull off, but, fair play to him.

but, but I think it's, it was really interesting.

And again, he used to quite often go old school.

He'd either have a flip chart or he'd have like acetates, right?

With an overhead projector.

I used to love overhead projectors for doing stuff, right?

Very old school.

But, a again, but don't get lost in, it's not about the technology.

It's not about the things that fly in on your keynote and your

P PowerPoint and everything else.

It's literally what comes outta your mouth, right?

Some people

know Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan Kennedy still uses the overhead projector.

he did write it because I remember just scrolling through the phone whenever

that was a few years ago, and he wrote, almost an obituary for himself

and just said, look, I've had a good life and this, that, and the other,

but it looks like it's not long to go.

The doctors have told me this, that and the other.

And fortunately,

I read, I read his kind of like his self self reclaimed obituary, and I,

I just assumed that that was what Wow.

So it's fantastic that, that he got over it and yeah, I dunno whether there's

any repercussions down the track, but I mean, he's done, he's done very well.

But yeah.

Russell Brunson ended up buying his business, which I think, demonstrates,

I mean, Russell Brunson is at the forefront of today's technology, and

yet he bought a business that was, one would, one would argue was old school.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And but again, I think it's, it's, the old school principles are still

what governs the, the new kind of technological led businesses of today.

if, if

And you know what I mean, even.

When I preached, value add marketing instead of price discount because

you wanna protect your brand.

And, I, I guess what we call incentive based marketing,

which is the Happy Mill toy.

it doesn't always have to be like that.

You've just gotta think outside the square.

And the sample that I gave is that we lived in a little

country town, in New South Wales.

and it was two hours north of Sydney.

Had a population.

when I say we lived there, we moved there for a few years and, had a popular, it

was a little bit like, Andy Griffith's, Mayberry, and, There was, one books show

and one baker and this, that, the other.

And as it turned out, there was one hairdresser in town and my

wife, our kids were going to the little St. Joseph school in town.

And my wife would get her hair, done on the way to pick up the

kids from school from time to time.

And the lady who owned the hairdressing salon and its name was Kimberly.

And she said to my wife, look, would John have any of that wow stuff?

And Gail said, why?

And she said, well, there's a lady opened up across the road, a new hairdressing

salon, and it's the first competition I've had in 20 years in a little country town.

She's stolen all my men.

And, Gail, my wife said, what do you mean?

She said, well, we used to charge $50 for a men's haircut, but she's chaing $10.

And so men don't care.

They'll get their hair cut at a butcher, right?

So they just have all gone across the road to the new lady.

And she said, the trouble is, is that where the men go?

Sometimes the women follow and the women are where my make most of my money.

'cause they'll spend a hundred, 200, $300 on a hair thing.

And so Gail comes home and says to me, look, I've got a free job for you.

I went, oh, thank you.

That's all I need is another freebie.

'cause the thing is, as you would know, I'm sure Jim, is that,

nobody asks the electrician to put a PowerPoint in the kitchen when

they come over for a barbecue.

But when you go to a barbecue and I go a barbecue, everyone wants to

know about a marketing idea for free.

I think, I think a lot of people make the mistake, they assume that because

I do marketing for a living, they go, oh, Jim, you work with computers.

I'm like, everyone that works in an office works with computers.

The fact I know how to, I know around them a lot better than most people because

again, I've spent my, my, my whole life, God, this thing's really pissing me off.

It's frustrating the hell outta me and I've just learned how to do things right.

But that's, that's the only difference between me and, and somebody

else that works in an office.

I've just spent more time

I mean, the thing is, you don't need to be a chef to know what tastes good.

So when my computer breaks down, I get the computer going in.

Don't worry about that.

Yeah.

Anyway, so I, I sat on it for a day or two and then I said to girl, okay,

look, I'll go in and talk to Kimberly.

So I did, and I said, look, I think we can get all your men back pretty quickly.

And she goes, yeah, I've gotta drop to $9.

there's charging $10 a here car.

I said, no, no, no, you don't need to do that.

So we produced a sandwich board and we put it outside her hairdressing salon,

which was directly opposite the one that had opened up across the road.

And the, she got all of men back within a week or two because the, the sandwich

board said We fixed $10 haircuts.

So you don't always have to have a,

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

Again, it, it, it is one of those things.

I mean, whenever, whenever I go to the barbers, again, I, I will

just go into the, the one that I happen to walk by as a go, right?

So I'm walk, I go, oh, I need a haircut.

I'll just walk past, oh, there's a barbers that go in there.

I couldn't really care.

It's like there's not not much left now to worry too much about, and, and, and

they they're standing there and they spend all this time on the back and

doing this, doing this, and, and they go, do you want it sort of like, like a,

a sort of a duck's arse straight across?

I'm like, to be honest with you, I, I can't see the

back, so I don't really care.

You do what you, you do what you think is best.

You are the expert.

I trust your judgment.

If you think it's, straight across, then do that.

If you want duck's ass, fine, do that.

I really don't care.

Because I can't see it apart from the one time the ho the one time

I can actually see, it's when they hold the mirror up that side.

That side.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Fine.

Great.

Yeah.

I, I keep thinking like, what are they actually looking for?

They're looking for some constructive feedback.

Well, the,

And Jim, let me ask you this, have they ever collected your data?

I bet you the answer's no.

no, never, never, you

no.

Amazing.

Just amazing.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Can you imagine, can you imagine running your business now without having collected

your data over the, we've got about, I don't know, 9,800 or something businesses.

Most of 'em are in Australia, but there's a few overseas.

And if ever I feel that, oh, we might make some more money this week.

I just send out one or two emails and that's as simple as that.

Now, obviously it's gotta be a good deal.

I make sure it is.

But you know, if you don't have that facility, then you just are

hoping and praying that someone's gonna walk through the door.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like, it's like you, you mentioned real estate.

I mean, one of the, the, the, again, really smart real estate guys that I

know, Dean Jackson, based in Florida.

He has the nine word email Where he sends an an e an email out.

And the subject, the, the, the, the Descript, like the whole body of the email

is, are you still looking for help with.

Whatever it was that you kind of like, you, they, they were looking for help

with when you'd spoke to them like six months ago, whenever it might be.

And it's amazing how many people you do that.

I mean, I, I used to do that from time to time.

I'm like, what if that works?

So I just used to do that from time to time.

I would go to my email list, write an an email and go, aren't you still looking

for help with paid media, Facebook Ads, Google Ads, whatever, whatever it was

that I had a conversation with them about.

Question Mark Jim, send, that was it.

And it used to take me about literally 10 seconds to send it.

And, again, I, I would probably send maybe 40 or 50 those in a week if I

was like a bit, hey, I've got a bit of capacity to do some additional stuff.

And I would probably get, I would, I would guess probably between five

and 10% of the people I would send those to, I would get a response from.

And, at least you, again, you, you've got, you've got the opportunity.

you, you'll, people always say you only miss the, the balls that you swing at.

If you don't swing at it, you'll never hit it.

So at least I'm in, in with the chance of pitching to try and win it.

And if I don't win it, then I don't win it for, for whatever reason.

I mean, again, sometimes

Michael Jordan.

Michael Jordan.

you don't.

Michael Jordan reckons he holds a world record for the number of hoops missed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

you, I dunno if LeBron's got that now, he must have kinda

had more shots than Michael now.

He must, he must be up there.

Yeah.

But the thing is, is that the good thing about, email and almost the

same with SMS although there's a small cost to SMS, is that it's free.

It's, it's absolutely free.

And when people say to me, oh, you gotta pay five in Australian currency, it's

five or 6 cents for an SMSI go and they, oh, how do you send out 5,000 on them?

I go, my God, can you understand that back in the day, you'd have

to buy a postage stamp, put it in an envelope, and hope to goodness

that it would arrive at the address.

You can pay 5 cents.

And the thing with the, with the, SMSs is that it's an 80% open rate

within two minutes compared to emails, of course, which is good luck.

80% open within two minutes.

There's never been anything like that in the history of the world,

yeah.

I mean it's, it's, I think probably messenger's, maybe the

only other thing that kind of has a similar sort of open rate now.

but again, I, I find me messenger is, it's been spoiled by a lot of people

who are just spamming the living daylights out of groups and whatever

else with, pornography and whatever.

So I think a lot, a lot of people, if they're not expecting.

If they don't know you and they're not, you're not in their connections, then

they'd be like, I'm not gonna do that.

Although Jim, I've been very, for, I've been very fortunate.

I've got, about seven Russian brides now.

So therefore, yeah, that's been very, it's been very good for me.

I haven't met any of them, but yeah, I,

yeah, I mean, I've sent a little bit of money to Nigeria from time

to time, but, but, but it always makes me laugh when people say,

oh, why would people be so stupid?

It's because some people are stupid.

I mean, that's unfortunately the, the nature of the world.

Unfortunately, some people will fall for that type of thing.

And, I nearly fall for it from time to time.

Not, again, not that type of thing, but, so the occasional phishing

attempt or whatever, I, I might, I'm, well, hang on a minute.

I'm not really sure about that.

And then, you go, oh, no, that's definitely not, what it claims to be.

I mean, the, the, the kind of classic one is I, I've, I've been a, a Facebook or a

better business partner for a long time.

They have the kind of a partner program where you're supposed

to get all these great benefits.

Supposed they're supposed to send you tons of lead.

I've, I've had one lead in probably eight or nine years from China.

clearly wasn't, wasn't worth anything, but because I have a directory entry,

I get spam to death by people trying to sell me things and pretending to

be other people and whatever else.

So I actually got to the point where I had the opportunity to no longer be a

meta partner and good, take me out the directory and that's what I've done.

'cause again, I don't need it.

I, I don't need it.

maybe other people do to kind of have it, have it stroke their ego.

I don't need my ego stroke at all in any way, shape or form.

So Jim, how do you, how do you then get new clients?

What do you do?

Do you advertise yourself on social media?

no, no.

I mean lit, literally.

Like I, people always say, so how do you find new clients?

I'm like, I don't.

They find me, which

good.

Well, that's

Which, which again, I think, I think, I think a, a lot of that is by virtue

of the fact I've, again, I've gone out and tr gone out, out and outta my way

to try and help as many people as I can.

My wife always complains that I do a lot of.

Free stuff where I help a lot of people for free.

It's just I like helping people.

I really do.

I really genuinely want to see people succeed.

Because I think the more people succeed, the more the kind of, the

business is robust and reliable and the, the industry grows as a, as a

kind of, it continues to evolve, right?

I was in, in it, involved in it from the very beginning, much like yourself, right?

You came from an old school background into a new, a new world.

And you've had to learn new skills along the way, but this kind

of principles of the old school still stood you in good stead.

and I think a lot, a lot of people.

I don't have that old school foundation and have just gone straight in,

like almost trying to bypass it.

And I think you, again, a lot of them are now trying to go back and, and learn it.

Which makes it that much more difficult to do.

I mean, again, I was a, an absolute scholar of, your Zig Ziglars, your

Tom Hopkins, your Tom Peters, right?

Dale Carnegie's, Claude Hopkins, I mean, all these guys that wrote great books.

I've got my whole Kindle full of that type of stuff.

I absolutely love it, love reading it.

again, I used to, I used to enjoy the old paper books, right?

But, I'm more, I have everything on a Kindle now because it's much

easier to carry around, right?

So if I go on a train for two hours, I can kind of read, read stuff and, again,

I, I'm copious highlighting all the time.

Highlight, highlight, highlight.

Oh, so you've got the, you've got the yellow highlight pen with you all the

All the time.

All the time.

And again, what what I do is I copy all those highlights into a

program called Read Wise, right?

So that puts it into there.

And then I've basically got a, if you like, a sort of summary of the book in

just my highlights as I gonna go along.

I picked out the salient bits for me, and somebody else will read

the book and find that there are different parts that resonate with

them and are more salient to them.

Great.

I, I would, I would highly urge people to adopt that same methodology for, for

yeah.

Good idea.

of the way they read a book.

So I tend to read a book first, then I go back and read it again and

highlight as I go along the bits that I

I'll read autobiographies.

My wife is a good reader of fiction and so forth, and she always laughs

at me because I don't read fiction.

If I did, I'd read to the first few pages and go straight to the

back, to find out what happened because I've got no attention span.

but I'd rather read books on Walt Disney or Richard Branson or Steven

Spielberg or whatever it might be.

I'd rather read an autobiography than, I don't care about love stories, I'm afraid.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes I, I like to see the way the, the kind of, the story's

constructed in a, in a good fiction novel.

But, but yeah, but I think, to, yeah, to, to, to your point, I like to

see the kind of the origin story of some of these kind of entrepreneurs

that you, you like, again, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of Bill Gates, right?

In terms of his humility and kind of his philanthropy, right?

I think so many people now, I think the only thing my kind of industry is

probably not doing a good job of is giving back to the world some of the

spoils that they've managed to achieve through what they've got, right?

They're much more, here's my Lambos, here's my big houses.

Here's me on a private jet.

Here's me, whatever.

It's Seriously.

I'd much rather say, here's, here's some, some, kids that I put, again,

I love LeBron because he's putting all these kids through sort of school

and university and everything else.

He's, again, he's, he's at the point, he, he's got so much money, doesn't need

it, doesn't need to play basketball.

He still loves it, right?

But he's doing it to build his legacy and his legacy will stretch far beyond

the date that he hangs up his, his, his boots and stops playing, right?

I, I just, again, I just think I, I, I like giving back.

I like helping people and I think in doing that, I'm helping impart

some of my, my wisdom, right?

It's my wisdom.

But, it's E even still, it's like people can take, take and

do with it what they want to.

I'm not charging them for, for the privilege of, of having it.

I genuinely want to see if, again, if people come on and, and, and,

and want to do well in business.

I'm, I'm the biggest cheerleader, stand from the sidelines

and cheer them on to do it.

And if they need help, I'm more than happy to do that because, it's, again, I, I,

I'm not looking for anything in return.

I know some people would go, well, I'll only do this if you

give me 10% of this and 10%.

Again, I'm not, I'm not a fool.

I don't want to do everything for free, because that would

be stupid of me to do that.

I've got a very commercial kind of mind and I want to make sure that

that kind of continues to work.

But I think, if, if I only look at it as what's in it for me,

I'm looking at the wrong thing.

I need to be looking at what's in it for them, right?

And as a byproduct of that, there'll be lots in it for me as well.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, look, as, Gary v, book, I think it said, was it, jab, jab, jab Punch,

which is give, give, give, then ask.

So yeah, there's a, there's a good philosophy behind, your mantra.

Tell me this, before I go, bill Gates, Microsoft, are you aware that October

the 14th is the day that, Microsoft 10 stops having any support and so therefore

you, you've gotta get Microsoft 11.

Oh really?

No, I wasn't aware of that.

Yeah.

Oh, sorry.

When I say Microsoft win win Windows.

Windows, sorry.

You are

yeah.

I'm a Mac guy, so I don't, I don't use Windows for that purpose, but, but yeah,

The reason I I bring that up is because I've had a client come on

board in the last month and he's got an alternative to windows.

And as it turns out, it runs 25 times faster than, windows, 11.

And I think he's onto something.

I'm just putting the campaign together for it at the moment.

And, the, the, The strategy that we're using is that October 14th is pretty

much doomsday, because the world, as you know it, if you've got a Windows

10, will disappear on October the 15th.

Because if you don't have Oct windows 11, then you have no support.

Microsoft are walking away from it.

and guess what?

There's 440 million people in the world still with Windows 10.

So I said to this guy, I think you might be onto something because there's a lot

of people who are a bit peed off with Windows, and if there's an alternative

out there, and of course we've got a big job ahead of us to make sure

it's seen as a credible alternative.

But I've gone down the rabbit hole.

This thing is brilliant and it's 25 times faster than windows.

That's, I mean, it showed me a PowerPoint presentation, which was, 300 slides

and 30 of those slides were videos and it downloaded in about seven seconds.

It was unbelievable,

that's quick.

Yeah.

yeah, I just thought I'd ask you that because when you mentioned

Bill Gates that came to mind.

this guy, is very, very clever and I hope he does well, and I hope

we can help him because, yeah.

and of course you can imagine the campaign that will be running is

that if you have Windows 10 and then something happens after October

the 14th, you're on your own.

You, you, you have to just go out and buy a new computer

for $1,500 and get Windows 11.

I mean, I, I, again, I, I think, I think there has to come a point in time when you

stop providing support for legacy stuff.

I mean, there has to be, I mean, at some point in time,

you go, okay, enough's enough.

I mean, I know with, with the Apple products, I mean, I've got

an old I iPhone seven still works.

I can still turn it on, I can still do stuff on it.

But a lot of the apps that I, I use like day to day now in my kind of business,

don't function on that because they need a certain version of the operating

system that that particular phone doesn't support anymore because it's not, again,

it's not reliable and, and strong enough to support the new operating system

versions that have come out since that phone was produced probably 10 years ago.

I, I get that, that, you don't wanna have a big room full of engineers supporting

technology that I, I know 400 million sounds like a lot and it is Right.

But I think, I think a lot of people will probably as much as the,

the, the, the, the new stuff that you're talking about Sounds great.

And I'm sure it'll do well.

But I'm sure a lot of people will just be like, they'll probably bite the bullet to

go, okay, I'm gonna pay for Windows 11.

'cause it's, it's, it's just, it's I think they're, they're digging their

heels in now because they don't really want to be paying any more money.

But it's a case of if you don't pay this money, then you

know you are on your own then.

There's nothing, nothing wrong with Microsoft's, model.

It's, it's, it's clever.

I mean, the thing is, is that you've gotta have the latest and the greatest.

And so a lot of people will do that.

But by the same token, I have to applaud this guy's entrepreneurial flare because

he's seen a, he's seen a gap and he's, gonna give it his best shot to fill it.

So there's nothing wrong with what Microsoft are doing.

I mean, if you and I are in that position, we'd make sure that people have gotta

change every now, I mean, whenever

like you look, you look, you look at the iPhone, I mean the, the

iPhone is a classic example of a incredibly, incredibly well.

Like a packaged and manufactured and, and marketed product.

Because they come out with a new iPhone version.

So they, I think, what is it, 16 that's just come out now, right?

I, I've got friends that have bought every single new iPhone the day it's come out.

They've stood in line outside an iPhone store, apple Store.

And they've dropped the $1,200 to get a new phone.

I'm like, what was wrong with the old phone?

Oh, nothing was wrong with it.

I just wanted the new one.

I'm like, what do you do with the old one?

I'll just put it in the box and put it up, up on a shelf.

And it's

How about status?

yeah.

I mean, and it's just so they've got like a, a, a graveyard full of old iPhones

that are just there for posterity.

Well, you probably feel the same because if I came back to do another

job, I would make sure that I produced a toothpaste or an underarm spray or

something like that, that people are gonna buy every, every four weeks or

six weeks or whatever it might be.

Because, if you produce a product like a microwave oven or a

refrigerator, then there's a good chance it's gonna last 10 years.

And that's not where the money is.

The money is getting people to buy your product every month.

absolutely.

And you look at some of the classic kind of, how do we double sales?

I mean, the old with shampoo sales, it was like, wash, rinse, repeat.

It's like, how easy was that?

It's can you get by with not repeating?

Probably.

But you know, a lot of people say, well, it's much better if you do.

Okay, fine.

Well, I'll do that then.

So you are gonna consume twice as much of the product, which for me was genius.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

so John, this has been phenomenal.

I've really, again, I, I love having people that have got an old school

background, but with clearly a, a kind of a sharp as ever, UpToDate brain.

And clearly you've provide so much amazing, information for podcast

listeners and watchers to, to take away and, and hopefully act upon.

So if they wanted to act upon.

Like this episode and kind kind of get in touch with you all your, all

your details will be in the show notes in terms of like websites and

podcast stuff and everything else.

So if they wanna have you as a guest on the podcast, again, I'd

love you to kinda get more podcast guesting on the back of this.

'cause you've been a phenomenal guest for me.

I'm sure he'd be a phenomenal guest for other people as well.

but if there was one thing that you wanted them to do, what

would that be As a parting,

Oh gosh.

That's just one of, it's one of those questions you do get at the

end of, at the end of podcast.

Not the same as many, most of them are.

If you had to say something to your 21-year-old self, what would you say?

Of course, that's an oldie bit of go.

but first of all, if anyone wants to contact me, look my website and,

and as Jim said, it's on the notes anyway, but it's the institute of

wow.com and, my email address is John at the institute of wow.com.

So that's my contact details.

probably if I was to give any advice to, to business owners and

particularly younger ones, don't make the mistake that I made.

I, when I was in my twenties and thirties and I was getting into this

advertising and marketing game, I hung around, left brain to people.

I dunno why, whether it was an accident or not, but I hung around people who kept on

saying to me, oh, why would you do this?

Why would you do that?

Why would you do this?

And that's what.

Accountants and lawyers and operational minded people tend to do, they'll

find a reason why not to do something.